Celtics in 18-19

HomeRunBaker

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Good God? This team as presently constituted has zero chance of winning the EC. I'm sick of Hayward bricking shot after shot after shot. Put someone else in there. If Mook is hurt, find someone in the D-league. Hayward is a $30M millstone.
Hayward’s entered the game with a 58.2 TS% in the month of December. His career TS% is 56.2

I don’t disagree much with your overall take however. I warned people about the schedule over the past 3 weeks giving us false hope. Where is Brad’s bandwagon these days? Did he forget how to coach overnight or maybe his impact is similar to your typical NBA coaches impact......minimal?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Brad’s impact is minimal? Really?
People are citing the fact that he received no votes for coach of the year last season as proof that he isn't as good as some of us thought he was. Its hard to argue with anyone these days given the results though Stevens lack of COY votes seem like a petty way to judge him.

The bottom line is the team is performing below expectations for a variety of reasons and Stevens gets some of the blame. If this keeps up, the drumbeat to replace him with someone with more of a brand will increase. I don't think Ainge will bend to the pressure but I am curious who people think is capable of doing more with this roster.

On another front, the Celtics are taking just over six more threes per game this season and making 1.4% less of them versus last year. That obviously costs offensively but, coupled with the Celtics being a middle of the pack rebounding club, its also seems to be leading to more run-outs/fast-breaks for the opposition so its costing them on defense as well.

I am going to take a glass half full view here. Tonight the Bucks shot 40% from deep vs their season average of 35.3% with Maker and Snell doing their best impressions of Harden and Curry. Meanwhile the C's hit 29.4% of their shots. If each team just shot their season averages, the game would have been a lot closer.

More to the point, its clear that the C's, minus Horford, Morris and Baynes are a different team all the way around. I think HRB is right in that the recent schedule was kind to Boston but some of that run was also the result of more defined roles. The recent injury rash has thrown rotations into disarray and even if Brad were a well respected coach, I am not sure he could do much differently here (I know -MOAR TimeLord!).

In short, before judging them or Stevens too harshly, lets see what the Celtics do when they get Al and Mook back from injury. They may still lose to a team like the Bucks at home but I would be shocked if a Suns-like squad would be able to defeat a full-strength Boston team at the Garden.
 

Imbricus

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I took a look at some stats, curious about where this team stands compared with the rest of the NBA. They're good in turnovers (#4 lowest) and assists (#8). Their rebounding isn't even as bad as I thought it would be (#11), though to be fair, that's the full season and it's gotten noticeably worse with Baynes and Horford and Morris out. Their three-point shooting, which has seemed inconsistent, is still #6, which is pretty good.

Where they suck is FG% (#21) and true shooting (#18). Also they're terrible in getting to the foul line (#28). To me this feels like a team that was built a little too small (even with Baynes and Horford healthy, they match up small against the NBA's bigger lineups) that could've been saved by good shooters, but the shooters aren't that good, and when they're not lighting it up from three, the Celtics get in trouble, because no one is that good at driving and drawing a foul, like a Harden or Giannis.

An interesting thing is, right now, they're tied for #10 in terms of best record. However, if you look at this advanced stat of "Player Impact Estimate" they're #6 at 53.8 and nearly tied with Golden State at 54. Which leads me to wonder: With Brad's past teams, the whole always seemed greater than the sum of the parts. But I wonder if we've finally reached a position where the whole is less than the sum of the parts.

If this is true, the good news is that a savvy GM (Ainge) would then need to figure out which parts he can swap out for equal value parts that will enhance the overall whole (and plug the holes). It would be interesting if Ainge tried to make a couple of strategic trades next year, right before the deadline, and after he's had a good opportunity to better evaluate this team's strengths/weaknesses/chemistry.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Mismatches? How about putting someone in there who can make a shot? Sure, JB showed signs of life. Hayward didn't, and Irving looked like the leader of a lottery team.

At some point Ainge and Stevens have to wake up and smell the coffee.
They are running out of guys to put in there unless you have a hankering for PJ Dozier or Wannamaker.
I took a look at some stats, curious about where this team stands compared with the rest of the NBA. They're good in turnovers (#4 lowest) and assists (#8). Their rebounding isn't even as bad as I thought it would be (#11), though to be fair, that's the full season and it's gotten noticeably worse with Baynes and Horford and Morris out. Their three-point shooting, which has seemed inconsistent, is still #6, which is pretty good.

Where they suck is FG% (#21) and true shooting (#18). Also they're terrible in getting to the foul line (#28). To me this feels like a team that was built a little too small (even with Baynes and Horford healthy, they match up small against the NBA's bigger lineups) that could've been saved by good shooters, but the shooters aren't that good, and when they're not lighting it up from three, the Celtics get in trouble, because no one is that good at driving and drawing a foul, like a Harden or Giannis.

An interesting thing is, right now, they're tied for #10 in terms of best record. However, if you look at this advanced stat of "Player Impact Estimate" they're #6 at 53.8 and nearly tied with Golden State at 54. Which leads me to wonder: With Brad's past teams, the whole always seemed greater than the sum of the parts. But I wonder if we've finally reached a position where the whole is less than the sum of the parts.

If this is true, the good news is that a savvy GM (Ainge) would then need to figure out which parts he can swap out for equal value parts that will enhance the overall whole (and plug the holes). It would be interesting if Ainge tried to make a couple of strategic trades next year, right before the deadline, and after he's had a good opportunity to better evaluate this team's strengths/weaknesses/chemistry.
To get to the point about Brad, the bottom line is that this team isn't built to be 21st in FG%. People had a lot of expectations about this team because we felt that they'd be rolling out All-Star caliber player after All-Star caliber player. Well, really the only two AS-caliber players have been MaMo and KI. Smart and Baynes have been fine for who they are but Al has been deferring; JT hasn't made any jump from last year, and GH, JB, and TR have been replacement-level players (or worse). The Cs bench got outscored something like 20-3 in the first half last night and that's not supposed to happen.

One thing I've noticed about this team. They go through a lot of droughts because they seem to take turns putting up "degree of difficulty" shots. And against good teams, many of these mid-range misses are going for easy shots on the other end.
 

Gash Prex

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I think BigJohn is right guys, it’s over, time to tear it down. The season is clearly over after losing the last 3 games. They clearly won’t be able to put it together over the next 50 games. Who cares when Horford comes back - he adds nothing to the team they don’t already have.

Let’s move on from our athletic young players that are still growing and learning with All star potential let’s get some established shooters who can’t switch anything
 

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I know this is a big if but if the lineup last night was KI, JT, MM, MS and AH to start with GH, Jaylen, Baynes and Rozier coming off the bench, I suspect the outcome would have been a bit different as would the recent posts in this thread.

Brad's job by end of year:
* Get the team healthy - I believe that the Celts leadership is solely focused on what's going to occur in the postseason and have much less angst than we have.
* Earn the second or third seed. Would be nice to have a higher seed but it not imperative if the team is rolling heading into the postseason
* Get them playing well together by year end. Still a long way to go April...
 

chilidawg

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Irving played 39 minutes last night and jacked up 20 shots on his way to 15 points. I'm not sure wtf he's talking about postgame.

The Celtics struggled against the length of the Bucks, which is why they're stuck with so many contested shots. Replacing Ojeleye and Hayward upfront with Horford and Morris certainly helps there, but we've seen that issue other times. Smart in the starting lineup over Brown also doesn't help. The small ball era is such a misnomer, because the best teams like GS, Toronto and the Bucks have great length throughout their lineups. You need long, skilled guys who can also play the perimeter.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Irving played 39 minutes last night and jacked up 20 shots on his way to 15 points. I'm not sure wtf he's talking about postgame.

The Celtics struggled against the length of the Bucks, which is why they're stuck with so many contested shots. Replacing Ojeleye and Hayward upfront with Horford and Morris certainly helps there, but we've seen that issue other times. Smart in the starting lineup over Brown also doesn't help. The small ball era is such a misnomer, because the best teams like GS, Toronto and the Bucks have great length throughout their lineups. You need long, skilled guys who can also play the perimeter.
The best way to effect this change is to subtract Rozier from the mix. I think he's a huge part of the problem, not because of how he has played (which hasn't been great) but because, outside of certain matchups, the Celtics are better off with bigger lineups. In their playoff success last year, they weren't running a lot of lineups with multiple smalls on the floor. (Smart is a special case because he plays bigger than his size would suggest).

The Celtics would really be in a bind if they didn't have Rozier and Kyrie went down. But as long as Kyrie is healthy and playing, Rozier is a net negative because almost every minute he plays he makes the Celtics smaller at point and wing.
 

BigSoxFan

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The best way to effect this change is to subtract Rozier from the mix. I think he's a huge part of the problem, not because of how he has played (which hasn't been great) but because, outside of certain matchups, the Celtics are better off with bigger lineups. In their playoff success last year, they weren't running a lot of lineups with multiple smalls on the floor. (Smart is a special case because he plays bigger than his size would suggest).

The Celtics would really be in a bind if they didn't have Rozier and Kyrie went down. But as long as Kyrie is healthy and playing, Rozier is a net negative because almost every minute he plays he makes the Celtics smaller at point and wing.
Rozier needs to be off this team. The Celtics are 18-13 with Kyrie being healthy. If he were to ever go down, the season would effectively over. Last year was fun but I view it like Ainge viewed the 2002 ECF run. This year, the East is much stronger with Toronto, Milwaukee, Philly, and Indiana all playing much better basketball. Rozier isn’t leading the Celtics past most of those teams. Dude was -20 last night. He just isn’t fitting in. A change of scenery would be help for both parties.
 

Captaincoop

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The only thing worse than watching this team play right now is listening to them talk about it afteward.

This is the first time I've had legitimate doubts about whether this group can pull it together.

I mean, Kyrie has such an intense lack of self awareness - he was the #1 or #2 offender in all the categories he called his teammates out for.
 

Big John

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I wouldn't mind trading Rozier, but the guy who really has to go is Hayward, if Ainge can find another GM dumb enough to take him.
 

lovegtm

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The best way to effect this change is to subtract Rozier from the mix. I think he's a huge part of the problem, not because of how he has played (which hasn't been great) but because, outside of certain matchups, the Celtics are better off with bigger lineups. In their playoff success last year, they weren't running a lot of lineups with multiple smalls on the floor. (Smart is a special case because he plays bigger than his size would suggest).

The Celtics would really be in a bind if they didn't have Rozier and Kyrie went down. But as long as Kyrie is healthy and playing, Rozier is a net negative because almost every minute he plays he makes the Celtics smaller at point and wing.
Yeah, it's really weird in the NBA to build a roster around "make sure we're ok if our best player goes down." You ride as far as your stars take you--last year's Celtics team was a massive outlier in that regard, and probably would have been out in the 2nd round if the opponent had been Toronto (or the first round if Bud were the Bucks coach).
 

Jimbodandy

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People are citing the fact that he received no votes for coach of the year last season as proof that he isn't as good as some of us thought he was. Its hard to argue with anyone these days given the results though Stevens lack of COY votes seem like a petty way to judge him.

The bottom line is the team is performing below expectations for a variety of reasons and Stevens gets some of the blame. If this keeps up, the drumbeat to replace him with someone with more of a brand will increase. I don't think Ainge will bend to the pressure but I am curious who people think is capable of doing more with this roster.

On another front, the Celtics are taking just over six more threes per game this season and making 1.4% less of them versus last year. That obviously costs offensively but, coupled with the Celtics being a middle of the pack rebounding club, its also seems to be leading to more run-outs/fast-breaks for the opposition so its costing them on defense as well.

I am going to take a glass half full view here. Tonight the Bucks shot 40% from deep vs their season average of 35.3% with Maker and Snell doing their best impressions of Harden and Curry. Meanwhile the C's hit 29.4% of their shots. If each team just shot their season averages, the game would have been a lot closer.

More to the point, its clear that the C's, minus Horford, Morris and Baynes are a different team all the way around. I think HRB is right in that the recent schedule was kind to Boston but some of that run was also the result of more defined roles. The recent injury rash has thrown rotations into disarray and even if Brad were a well respected coach, I am not sure he could do much differently here (I know -MOAR TimeLord!).

In short, before judging them or Stevens too harshly, lets see what the Celtics do when they get Al and Mook back from injury. They may still lose to a team like the Bucks at home but I would be shocked if a Suns-like squad would be able to defeat a full-strength Boston team at the Garden.
I agree with pretty much all of this.

Brad isn't going anywhere. What HRB was right about was that there's a lot of guys on this roster who are legit top-9 players on an NBA team, but establishing the right roles for everyone on offense in particular is a challenge. Last year, Jaylen was coming off a slow rookie season, Jayson was a rookie, Rozier wasn't playoff Rozier yet--everyone knew that things were undefined. Now, there is redundancy. Now, guys have more of a resume and a clearer idea in their own head of who they are. Yet, the puzzle hasn't been built yet.

I was pretty confident that they had started to identify those roles in a manner that would work. Then guys started dropping like flies, and those not-yet-crystallized rotations had to be thrown back into the pile and reselected all over again. And yes, against better competition unfortunately.

Aside from seeing what's out there for Rozier, I wouldn't change a lot. They need to experiment more, get guys healthy, and have a few real come-to-Jesus conversations. It's not going to be easy. But there's too much talent in the jerseys and the suits for them to suck like this all year. I really believe that.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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I wouldn't mind trading Rozier, but the guy who really has to go is Hayward, if Ainge can find another GM dumb enough to take him.
I get it, you’re frustrated. But please, step down off the ledge.

This team’s issue is not Gordon Hayward, and it’s not Terry Rozier. And I’m a guy who has been driving the Trade or Bench Terry Train for the better part of this season.

And this is going to hurt me to say, but it’s on Brad. He can’t make the shots himself, but hear me out. When this team swings the ball around, in the paint and back out again, they look unstoppable. Take the 10-1 run to start last nights game as an example. Then, the tempo disappears and the guys on the floor inexplicably start standing around the arc, looking for a 3 or trying to go ISO. Their half court offense is putrid. They refuse to rotate for a mismatch in the post.

This happens so damn frequently it’s absolute insanity. Brad refuses to punish offenders by pulling them. Terry subs in and jacks up a 3 with 19 seconds left on the clock? I want a time out and him on the bench. If you’re not going to fall in line with the behaviors that make this team formidable, there are no minutes for you.

I understand that a shooters mind can be fragile, and you’re looking for “quality shots,” but there needs to be some iota of accountability.

I love Brad Stevens and I, in no way, believe he should be on the hot seat.
 

Jimbodandy

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And someone needs to tell Kyrie that playing defense more than 2-3 possessions per game would be helpful. I appreciate his overall hustle, and he was probably the best player on the floor last night for us. But he was still shit. Just less shitty than the other guys.
 

HomeRunBaker

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For those who wish to rid ourselves of Rozier do you really wanna see Wanamaker playing 15-20 mpg and one (likely soon to come) Kyrie injury from Wanamaker having an even larger 25-30 min role?

Rozier is the least of this teams problems. It is certainly behind having to playing without one of Horford or Baynes. At this point the primary difference in Hayward’s game is that he’s getting half the touches he did in Utah where he was the clear cut go-to guy. He’s never going to put up his Utah numbers with so many scorers around him here so he is bound to disappoint those who had unrealistic expectations of his production here with this personnel.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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For those who wish to rid ourselves of Rozier do you really wanna see Wanamaker playing 15-20 mpg and one (likely soon to come) Kyrie injury from Wanamaker having an even larger 25-30 min role?

Rozier is the least of this teams problems. It is certainly behind having to playing without one of Horford or Baynes.
‘Trade Rozier’ is an emotional solution for a problem that could be solved logically by having him play his role. At least when Wanamaker is out there he knows his role is to move the ball around and create for others.

If Terry could just simply play off the ball as a spot up 3 threat that can put the ball down and get his defenders feet moving, he’d fit the offense better. Of course, he should also try to stay in front as a defender instead of going under the pick and allowing wide open looks all night.

He’s a frustrating player, but your overall point has some merit.
 

BigSoxFan

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‘Trade Rozier’ is an emotional solution for a problem that could be solved logically by having him play his role. At least when Wanamaker is out there he knows his role is to move the ball around and create for others.

If Terry could just simply play off the ball as a spot up 3 threat that can put the ball down and get his defenders feet moving, he’d fit the offense better. Of course, he should also try to stay in front as a defender instead of going under the pick and allowing wide open looks all night.

He’s a frustrating player, but your overall point has some merit.
The likelihood of Rozier fitting into a role that is most beneficial to the Celtics is low. It goes against everything he wants to do as a pending RFA and it’s shown so far this year. Agree on his defense. It needs to improve and that is an area where the Celtics and Rozier are completely aligned.
 

Imbricus

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When this team swings the ball around, in the paint and back out again, they look unstoppable.
The problem is, every time they get down by double digits, everyone tends to go into ISO hero mode. They start jacking up quick threes and stop passing as much and dig a bigger hole for themselves. So should Brad be calling a timeout and telling them to get their sh** together? Or is this just what NBA teams do whenever they get in holes, start jacking up quick shots and not passing, and the Celtics are just like other NBA teams? (Not that this excuses it, but I've been wondering how much of this is just typical frustration at trying to dig out of a hole).
 

HomeRunBaker

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‘Trade Rozier’ is an emotional solution for a problem that could be solved logically by having him play his role. At least when Wanamaker is out there he knows his role is to move the ball around and create for others.

If Terry could just simply play off the ball as a spot up 3 threat that can put the ball down and get his defenders feet moving, he’d fit the offense better. Of course, he should also try to stay in front as a defender instead of going under the pick and allowing wide open looks all night.

He’s a frustrating player, but your overall point has some merit.
This is why I am actually defending Brad as I have since before the season began in that he really had no chance to pull all of these redundant pieces in the same direction while so many (rightfully) have personal motives with big deals in front of them in the next 6-18 months. It’s a nearly impossible spot for both the coach and players at risk as I’ve been preaching since prior to season starting. Honestly, the one coach who would have had a chance to pull this team together is the one currently coaching the Clippers as he’s done so successfully with such a wide range of teams in the past.

Those calling for Brad to start benching players in the middle of their rotations is how things completely blow up. He’s handling this probably as well as possible imho. Of course my mantra has always been that an NBA head coach doesn’t have nearly as much influence as the fan bases feel they do.
 
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lovegtm

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And this is going to hurt me to say, but it’s on Brad. He can’t make the shots himself, but hear me out. When this team swings the ball around, in the paint and back out again, they look unstoppable. Take the 10-1 run to start last nights game as an example. Then, the tempo disappears and the guys on the floor inexplicably start standing around the arc, looking for a 3 or trying to go ISO. Their half court offense is putrid. They refuse to rotate for a mismatch in the post.

This happens so damn frequently it’s absolute insanity. Brad refuses to punish offenders by pulling them. Terry subs in and jacks up a 3 with 19 seconds left on the clock? I want a time out and him on the bench. If you’re not going to fall in line with the behaviors that make this team formidable, there are no minutes for you.
Agree with the above 100%. The team knows what works for it, and Brad hasn't held guys accountable to that. Tatum needs to know that every jacked up long 2 or ball-stopping possession means the bench (to take one example). In addition, this team clearly ups the defensive intensity and connectedness when the offense is playing the right way, which makes it even more critical to do things the right way on the offensive end.

Desperation focuses people. This might be what it takes for Brad to get out of his comfort zone and start holding guys accountable to playing the way they have to.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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Those calling for Brad to start benching players in the middle of their rotations is how things completely blow up. He’s handling this probably as well as possible imho.
I’m hoping that his strategy has been to get the players to realize that he’s doing them a solid by giving them run regardless of results while allowing those that execute to identify poor play out of frustration and set the tone internally. Although, You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
 

bigq

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The likelihood of Rozier fitting into a role that is most beneficial to the Celtics is low. It goes against everything he wants to do as a pending RFA and it’s shown so far this year. Agree on his defense. It needs to improve and that is an area where the Celtics and Rozier are completely aligned.
I would agree with those who say Rozier is not near the top of the Celtics' biggest problems however I don't like him and Kyrie on the floor at the same time. I know it is a product of the short bench but it seems that good things rarely happen for the team when the two are on the floor together.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I would agree with those who say Rozier is not near the top of the Celtics' biggest problems however I don't like him and Kyrie on the floor at the same time. I know it is a product of the short bench but it seems that good things rarely happen for the team when the two are on the floor together.
I feel it goes much deeper than it simply being the short bench as Rozier has been at 22 mpg or more in each month this year. We talk about Ainge’s relationships with agents which is crucial for every GM in the business and getting Rozier 12-16 mpg only behind Kyrie in a contract year does not fit a GM/agent relationship narrative. In other words, those minutes with Kyrie are likely mandated from a pay grade above Brad’s.
 

AimingForYoko

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I feel it goes much deeper than it simply being the short bench as Rozier has been at 22 mpg or more in each month this year. We talk about Ainge’s relationships with agents which is crucial for every GM in the business and getting Rozier 12-16 mpg only behind Kyrie in a contract year does not fit a GM/agent relationship narrative. In other words, those minutes with Kyrie are likely mandated from a pay grade above Brad’s.
weird Celtics twitter says Terry is Ainge's son so you're saying there's some truth to it?

I'm joking but why the fuck is he allowed to just slap it out there especially when Brad will yank Tatum or Brown when they screw up. But when it comes to Terry...nothing.

I don't know wtf is going on but maybe we really are just trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. Maybe some pieces just don't fit. *shrug*
 

DJnVa

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Hayward’s entered the game with a 58.2 TS% in the month of December. His career TS% is 56.2

I don’t disagree much with your overall take however. I warned people about the schedule over the past 3 weeks giving us false hope. Where is Brad’s bandwagon these days? Did he forget how to coach overnight or maybe his impact is similar to your typical NBA coaches impact......minimal?

Or maybe the idea of sitting actual good solid players every game wasn’t a good one and teams will compete better when they have their entire rotation available.
 

HomeRunBaker

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weird Celtics twitter says Terry is Ainge's son so you're saying there's some truth to it?

I'm joking but why the fuck is he allowed to just slap it out there especially when Brad will yank Tatum or Brown when they screw up. But when it comes to Terry...nothing.

I don't know wtf is going on but maybe we really are just trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole. Maybe some pieces just don't fit. *shrug*
I listed above why I feel this takes place. If a player is mandated minutes by your boss then your hands are tied.
 

bankshot1

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Last night the Celts lost to one of the best teams in the NBA, without 3 of their bigs. They were shorthanded, and have been for the past week. So I'm not going to get too upset about last night. But ironically IMO the core problem is in general there is too much depth, too many guys and too many egos who want minutes and think they are entitled to the minutes. And Brad has to try and keep those egos in check as he divides 240.

As to Gordo, patience and hope seems to be the only viable game plan and hope that over the season he regains his health and confidence and plays consistently to his skills. I don't think he's going anywhere.

Rozier is valuable back-up, but I'm not seeing the easy team chemistry that was there when he was the PG last year. If his desire to shine overshadows team goals, then maybe he gets traded sooner rather than later.

Jaylen Brown is a mystery to me. His confidence/mojo seems missing. I wonder if playing behind Tatum and Gordo has messed him up.

i still trust Brad and Danny.

Brad's role has changed, the last few years he was coaching a team with young and largely unproven players, (and last year he lost 2 of his proven guys, so the young guys grew up) and he blew through expecations. This year he's got much bigger expectations and a benchful of stars with big egos. And so far results have fallen short of those expectation.

Danny is still Danny, rational, driven and unemotional, and sees the big picture pretty well. I'm not sure he lets chemistry get in the way of math or biology.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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For all the hand wringing about Rozier, he was the same exact basketball player last year. A good 2 months made us forget the previous 2 1/2 years.
 

the moops

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Jaylen had an uneven game, but I think there was a lot of encouraging things from him. There was one sequence where he closed off a Giannis backdown in the post, then got switched onto Brogdon on the perimeter and completely swallowed him up. That defensive versatility is so damn important. And obviously nice to see him being aggresive taking it to the hole, even if there were a couple terrible layup attempts - and the three looked good last night
 

sezwho

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For those who wish to rid ourselves of Rozier do you really wanna see Wanamaker playing 15-20 mpg and one (likely soon to come) Kyrie injury from Wanamaker having an even larger 25-30 min role?.
I'm in agreement here. Was hoping for more from Terry this season, but he's not what ails them.

There is also the fact that, at least as I understand the contracts, any possible AD trade this season (please let me dream) means the Cs ship Kyrie out. That would mean we either need a PG back or the one we have on the bench is ready to play starters minutes. Maybe both.

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2018/11/26/anthony-davis-kyrie-irving-rose-rule
 

Eddie Jurak

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For those who wish to rid ourselves of Rozier do you really wanna see Wanamaker playing 15-20 mpg and one (likely soon to come) Kyrie injury from Wanamaker having an even larger 25-30 min role?
I think Wanamaker should get roughly the same minutes he got during last year's playoff run.
 

ifmanis5

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Sep 29, 2007
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For all the hand wringing about Rozier, he was the same exact basketball player last year. A good 2 months made us forget the previous 2 1/2 years.
Granted, his counting stats look similar from this year to last, but last year he compiled a 2.0 VORP. This year he's at 0.2. Win Shares are also way down.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roziete01.html
His overall efficiency numbers are bad. Those numbers back up what we're seeing- trying to do too much (and mostly failing) in a contact crossroads year. He plays with blinders on too often. In his defense, they keep trying to make him a PG when he's really a SG.

Will be interested to see how the team respond Sunday at home against the Hornets after the team meeting. If they lay another egg after the meeting then that is a very bad sign.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Dec 22, 2002
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And if Kyrie did get injured, why would Rozier be the one to replace him and not Marcus Smart? Smart is the better playmaker and the team has enough fire power else where.

I don't think Rozier really offers anything unique to Boston. Everything he does can be filled by someone else on the roster. He's an average 3 point shooter at best, terrible finisher, below average play maker, a decent rebounder and a meh defender. Our role players and young guys tend to get hyped and maybe they let it get to their head. The think they are deserving of more minutes and more pay than they are worth.

He's a career .377/.356/.767 shooter. This year he is at .378/.358/.730.

Career Rebound rate 9.9%. This year, 9.2%.
Career Assist rate 16.5%. This year 15.6%.
Steal rate 1.8%, this year 1.8%
Block rate 0.8%, this year 1.0%

Just more of the same. If he was on another team, people would claim he sucks. Last year he had a great stretch of basketball but it was due to him hitting
43.4% of his 3 pointers during that time. He hit 37% of his 2 pointers during the same stretch. His Assist rate was essentially the exact same too, he was just getting more playing time.

I used to be a fan of his, now I don't understand what I ever really saw in him.
 

mcpickl

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For those who wish to rid ourselves of Rozier do you really wanna see Wanamaker playing 15-20 mpg and one (likely soon to come) Kyrie injury from Wanamaker having an even larger 25-30 min role?

Rozier is the least of this teams problems. It is certainly behind having to playing without one of Horford or Baynes. At this point the primary difference in Hayward’s game is that he’s getting half the touches he did in Utah where he was the clear cut go-to guy. He’s never going to put up his Utah numbers with so many scorers around him here so he is bound to disappoint those who had unrealistic expectations of his production here with this personnel.
Are they trading Rozier away for nothing?

Couldn't they trade Rozier for a guard who is more of a role player rather than having Rozier coming in hunting for numbers to get his next contract?

Like, maybe a Pat Beverley type.

This is what I'd be trying to do if I were Boston. Try to flip Rozier for a solid bench player that they could keep going forward for a couple years. Since they're going to be headed into tax land for a while, I'd try to grab a guy that's too good to get with the taxpayer MLE, but they could possibly keep if he's already signed or with Bird rights.
 

RedOctober3829

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deep inside Guido territory
Part of the reason they’re struggling is their utter failures in ISO’s. Tatum is the biggest culprit.

“The Celtics are not a very good isolation team. According to play-type data logged by Synergy Sports, Boston ranks in the top half of the league (14th) in total isolation plays this season but sits 27th in points per isolation play (0.785), ahead of only the Knicks, Heat, and Hawks.

Seventy-three of Boston’s 251 isolation possessions belong to Tatum, per Synergy data. He’s averaging just 0.795 points per play in that situation, which ranks him in the 38th percentile among all NBA players. Even Irving has only attempted 67 ISO attempts and, remember when ISO Mook was a popular nickname for isolation-loving Marcus Morris, well he’s only attempted 45 isolation possessions all season and is one of Boston’s most consistent offensive presences.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/celtics/reading-between-lines-after-celtics-closed-door-meeting
 

HomeRunBaker

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Are they trading Rozier away for nothing?

Couldn’t they trade Rozier for a guard who is more of a role player rather than having Rozier coming in hunting for numbers to get his next contract?
He’s an expiring deal. The only teams interested in him at this point would be contenders looking to add backcourt depth for a run this year.....those teams aren’t giving us back anything of significance in return in the form of players and we don’t really need a 2nd round pick in the 30’s.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Oh, I think there's plenty of blame to go around, and Stevens isn't immune. Certainly his handling of time outs is open to criticism. But Hayward's 30M for a player who is not contributing is a structural issue for this team. Kyrie's over-dribbling is another structural issue. As spectacular as some of Kyrie's plays are, the other guys tend to stand around when he starts dancing with the ball.

I'm not standing on any ledges but watching Hayward I do not think he will ever be the player he was. If you do (to paraphrase Malcolm Reynolds) you're waiting for a train that just won't come. Moving a player like Hayward for expirings (and using some of the money to resign Marcus Morris) isn't a tear down because Morris is a better player.
You really gotta stop spewing this nonsense about Hayward not contributing. He’s putting up 13/4/4 this month while shooting better than his career average. Did you expect Utah-like numbers out of him without the same touches?


And if Kyrie did get injured, why would Rozier be the one to replace him and not Marcus Smart? Smart is the better playmaker and the team has enough fire power else where.
Is this a real question? Smart gets eaten up by quick guards with the ball and struggles defensively against them. This is plain to see to me but of course it’s opinion. What ISN’T opinion is that when Kyrie is out injured or takes a seat during a game it is Rozier replacing him as the lead guard.
 
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mcpickl

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He’s an expiring deal. The only teams interested in him at this point would be contenders looking to add backcourt depth for a run this year.....those teams aren’t giving us back anything of significance in return in the form of players and we don’t really need a 2nd round pick in the 30’s.
If he's worthless because he's on an expiring deal(not really since he's an RFA), why couldn't they trade him for a different guy on an expiring to get his Bird rights?

The guy they'd be acquiring would be worthless because he's on an expiring deal too, right?
 

amarshal2

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Oct 25, 2005
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I think the isolation scoring and just general inability to get layups is the problem. The Bucks obviously have Giannis who gets to the rim at will, but it seemed like they had a slew of guards who were beating the Celtics with a head fake or a quick step to get into the paint and to the rim.

6th in 3pt, 18th in true shooting and 27th in free throws? 3pt shooting has resolved itself and will continue to get better...It’s clear getting to the rim and finishing or drawing a foul Is. The. Problem. The ball movement during the win streak made up for it but come playoff time they’re going to need layups and iso scoring with top 10 efficiency from more than Kyrie.

The Celtics best players at getting quality shots in the paint last night were Semi and Brown. That’s terrible. Usually Kyrie is great but after that there’s nobody. Brown can get to the rim but he can’t finish or hit his free throws. Tatum just cannot do it this season and seems to play for a difficult midrange jumper. If theres ONE thing he needs to work on it’s this. Perhaps getting him the ball in the mid post would help? That’ll give him the option of a pump fake (they’ll need to respect his shot) into a quick layup. Right now he’s obsessed with pulling the ball all the way outside the arc and taking his guy face up...and while he’s long on potential he’s not very good at it.

I just do diagnosis. Somebody else figure out the fix please.
 

benhogan

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Celtic's five biggest issues to start this season:
1. Brown has been awful from day 1
2. Hayward not healthy
3. ISO long, contested 2 point jumpers
4. Rozier clearly affected w/his role
5. Brad's incessant desire to play small

It's a long season, nothing to get worried about, the team will evolve.

Hayward will heal. Jaylen will play better against other teams 2nd stringers OR he'll play less. Rozier needs to start grinding if he wants to get paid OR he'll play less. Coach is still a genius and he'll figure out the most effective rotations.

hogan drumbeat alert (amarshal2, glad you asked for a fix)
It's just a matter of time (and health) before Brad starts playing 2 bigger players (Horford w/ MaMo, Baynes w/ Horford or MaMo, Theis w/Horford or MaMo) for the majority of the time. That will improve both the defense (rebounding/blocks) with better rim protection. AND the offense will see more off. rebounds, physical screens/picks & hard rolls creating more dunks, drives & kick outs to three - thus leading to less ISO long, contested 2s.
 
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