LeBron to LA

Auger34

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Let’s give Magic and Pelinka the benefit of the doubt and say it’s all sewn up that Kawhi is going there next off season and KL doesn’t change his mind.
Who is the 3rd star in this equation? Realistically they need one more top 30 guy to complete the “super team”. Who are they going to try and trade for? Maybe Ball and Deng for Kemba?
Is there someone I’m not thinking of who wants to be the 3rd banana on that team?
 

Swedgin

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Marks on SportsCenter says after tonight’s moves it would be almost impossible to acquire Kawhi financially this summer. Appears they are going to just wait for next summer and sign him. Puts Pop in an interesting spot. Magic may have won a stare down with him.
That's not accurate. The salary going to SA needs to be approx 16.5.

The Lakers can do it this summer if either 1) SA takes Deng, 2) LA include Ingrim, Ball and two of the Kuzma, Hart, Zubac or Wagner (if they wait 30 days after they sign) or 3) do a Keith Bogans with IT or Lopez.

Or they can wait until 12/15 and then Stephenson et al can be included as salary filler.
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

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I think part of the theory is that having Lebron (and his ability to penetrate and draw double teams) will improve the quality of the looks the other guys get a significant amount. The Lakers didn't have a single guy last year who you really had to worry about one-on-one...that has now changed immeasurably.
Yeah that makes a lot of sense. The old dribble-drive-kick.

Still, LeBron seems to love those guys who are excellent spot up shooters like Kyle Korver or Mike Miller. No one on LA’s roster strikes me as that type.
 

mauf

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I'm a little surprised by all the other moves they're making, which seem unlikely to make them a real contender with GS/HOU, but do set them up nicely for next year. Lebron's 33, and while I expect he has a lot of good years left, there's not so many of them that I'd think he's willing to throw one away waiting for other max players to join him. On top of that, if the goal is to aim for next season to be competitive, why wouldn't he have just stayed in Cleveland for one more year, where his path to the finals is still much easier, and then made the move next year? Seems a little odd to me, unless he was just really ready for the LA chapter to begin, surrounding talent be damned.
In the flurry of conversation, we seem to have lost the first, immediate insight several of us had when the news first broke — that LBJ signing a 4-year deal rather than a 1+1 likely meant he had a commitment to trade at least some of the Lakers’ young assets for veteran players who can better assist a contending team right now.

Even if they’re committed to keeping a max slot open for Kawhi next summer (and I’m not at all convinced that’s true), they can and will make this team better between now and October.
 

Montana Fan

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Let’s give Magic and Pelinka the benefit of the doubt and say it’s all sewn up that Kawhi is going there next off season and KL doesn’t change his mind.
Who is the 3rd star in this equation? Realistically they need one more top 30 guy to complete the “super team”. Who are they going to try and trade for? Maybe Ball and Deng for Kemba?
Is there someone I’m not thinking of who wants to be the 3rd banana on that team?
You rang?
 

benhogan

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Oh, I was dancing in the proverbial streets with the rest of the Celtics fan base last night. By “main fear” I meant it was the primary downside I see, not that that downside in any way outweighs the benefits of Lebron moving west.
cool. Agreed Zarren leaving would be terrible.

I wonder if we have Zarren signed to a contract that would force another team to offer compensation for hiring him? Especially enemy #1 Philly.
 

mauf

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Let’s give Magic and Pelinka the benefit of the doubt and say it’s all sewn up that Kawhi is going there next off season and KL doesn’t change his mind.
Who is the 3rd star in this equation? Realistically they need one more top 30 guy to complete the “super team”. Who are they going to try and trade for? Maybe Ball and Deng for Kemba?
Is there someone I’m not thinking of who wants to be the 3rd banana on that team?
I raised John Wall as a possibility in another thread. The Zards aren’t a real contender and have little prospect of upgrading their current squad, and Wall’s contract is a cap-killer in the long run. If they moved Wall for Ball and Kuzma (taking Deng also for salary-matching purposes), they’d have those two plus Beal and Porter all under contract through 2021, with enough cap room to hand out at least one max contract in the summer of 2020. (Ingram has to get paid in 2020, so he isn’t as good a fit.) Not sure if Washington would consider trading Wall, but the possibility of a mutually beneficial deal is there.

If you think Mike Conley will return to his old form, he’s likely gettable too. The Grizzlies seem to be under no illusions that they are rebuilding, so I imagine they’d take the Deng contract if it allowed them to turn Conley into a real prospect.
 

Big John

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I'm not sure that Lonzo Ball can coexist gracefully with LeBron. Had LeBron gone to Philly, there would have been similar issues with Simmons.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I raised John Wall as a possibility in another thread. The Zards aren’t a real contender and have little prospect of upgrading their current squad, and Wall’s contract is a cap-killer in the long run. If they moved Wall for Ball and Kuzma (taking Deng also for salary-matching purposes), they’d have those two plus Beal and Porter all under contract through 2021, with enough cap room to hand out at least one max contract in the summer of 2020. (Ingram has to get paid in 2020, so he isn’t as good a fit.) Not sure if Washington would consider trading Wall, but the possibility of a mutually beneficial deal is there.

If you think Mike Conley will return to his old form, he’s likely gettable too. The Grizzlies seem to be under no illusions that they are rebuilding, so I imagine they’d take the Deng contract if it allowed them to turn Conley into a real prospect.
Like the nomenclature.

But WAS isn't trading Wall. The 'Zards only have 4 players under contract next year: Wall ($37.8M), Beal ($27.2M), and Porter ($27.1M), and Ian Mahimi ($15.45M). Also, Wall (and Porter for that matter) has a 15% trade kicker. If the Wiz were going to blow it up, they should have done it before signing Wall to the massive extension. If they trade Wall for Ball and Kuzma (plus salary), they are going to be a lottery team while they have Ball and Kuzma under control and the 'Zards definitely don't want to be there (for financial reasons - i.e., no one will go to their games).

WAS is much happier paying Wall and winning 45 games to flame out in the playoffs to trade him for Ball and Kuzma.
 

InstaFace

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So if George had signed in LA, would you then be far more uncomfortable seeing Ainge give up assets of a certain value for Kawhi?
Because it would remove LAL's cap space to sign Kawhi next year? I'm not sure it would change my assessment all that much. If he truly 100% intends to go to LAL and nowhere else, then upon discovering LAL can't sign him, he might be open to wherever he's landed, he might be open to staying wherever he lands during next season, or he might fixate on a Plan B and refuse all other suitors. It's hard to say how headstrong he's going to be about this. If I were Ainge, I'd place a much greater value on my conversations with his agent, or ideally him directly, than whatever tea leaves we've been reading here to interpret his intentions and how ironclad they are.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Article on how much cap space the Lakers have left this year: http://abc7.com/sports/how-lebron-and-the-lakers-can-become-title-contenders/3688418/

They have an interesting decision on whether to re-up Randle for a year or use the space to chance another player. As the article notes, "His fit next to James is questionable, but he is a high-upside player who could play center against the Golden State Warriors in a playoff series."

edit: found better article that also includes cap projections for 2019-20 season. The Lakers can open up about $37M of space if they waive and stretch Deng but he may also be movable as an expiring.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I'm not sure that Lonzo Ball can coexist gracefully with LeBron. Had LeBron gone to Philly, there would have been similar issues with Simmons.
Magic has to be taking calls on Lonzo. Who are his potential suitors? I don't recall who was even linked to like Lonzo in the draft since we all knew he was going to LA.

Also......we always talk about bad contracts but is there a BETTER contract in the league to a franchise than LeBron?
 

Tony C

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This is awesome.


Also, good on Lebron. He didnt take the easy route and he committed, essentially, the rest of his career there. By doing this, hes challenging for the greatest player of all time. Going to the west, building a team from scratch while flying solo, having to dethrone a historically great GS team? If he somehow wins a title in LA, it probably solidifies him as the GOAT.

Lebron in LA makes this league a lot more fun.
Spot on. This is a super ballsy move -- moving to an epic franchise to try and take a young talented team over the hump is a career ending challenge that could confirm him as the greatest ever.

I’m a bit surprised that the Lakers haven’t really addressed one of their biggest needs, 3 point shooting. They ranked second from the bottom in 3-point FG% and while LeBron helps a bit in that department (36.7% from 3 last year) I thought that they would go after more of a sniper, like Wayne Ellington. There's certainly plenty of time to pick up a guy like that, I wonder how much cap space they have left to do so.
On the one hand I agree they could really use a 3 and D type. On the other hand I think in all the hate commenting is missing that the Lakers have a very young, talented, and balanced cast around LeBron. I've read numerous posts that his cast in Cleveland would be better is absurd. It's true that LeBron has a weakness for being surrounded by spot up shooters like Korver and Smith, but I've always wanted to see him play with a team that moves the ball well and takes advantage of his amazing passing ability. Ball and Ingram are terrific passers and in general the Lakers will have a fast team of guys who can move the ball. I'm really looking forward to seeing LeBron in that context. Not saying that's enough to make them a true threat to GS......but Kawhi would be enough to make them that threat and mesh very nicely with the current cast. In re trading/waiting....on the George model it's a risk for the Lakers to wait, but on the other hand if they're truly out to compete with GS don't they have to try to pull the inside straight and both add Kawhi and keep their depth?
 
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bowiac

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Drama aside, Lonzo seems like a pretty great fit next to LeBron. Not sure why they'd be taking calls.
 

BigSoxFan

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Drama aside, Lonzo seems like a pretty great fit next to LeBron. Not sure why they'd be taking calls.
How so? LeBron’s supporting cast needs to be able to shoot after he breaks down defenses or to be able to create their own offense to give him a break. It’s why Kyrie was such a good running mate for him. But Lonzo can’t do either so while I’m sure they’ll have some nice fastbreak ESPN highlights, I don’t see a great halfcourt fit unless Lonzo gets a lot better in those areas.
 

wilked

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Drama aside, Lonzo seems like a pretty great fit next to LeBron. Not sure why they'd be taking calls.
Why is that exactly?

Lebron of course can do everything, but ball’s skills are redundant
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yes. I'm sure Lebron will be happy to play with a guy who get him the ball at opportune monents, plays defense, etc.
Lonzo is now relegated to Rondo's job in 2008 of bringing the ball upcourt and spotting up on the weak side. He's a creator and now these opportunities have been taken away. He's a much better fit than Simmons because I feel he'll be fine as a 3-point shooter in time but you do limit his skillset by playing him with LeBron.
 

Big John

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Does Lonzo play good defense? I haven't seen that. And will LeBron be happy playing off the ball? Maybe some of the time, but not in the last 4-5 minutes of a close game.

If the Lakers can move Ball to the Knicks for Ntilikina and a modestly protected future first round pick, they should do it. They could add the pick to their war chest for a Kawhi deal. Orlando and Phoenix must also be shopping for point guards, although I don't know what those teams have to give back that would interest the Lakers.
 

DJnVa

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Does Lonzo play good defense? I haven't seen that. And will LeBron be happy playing off the ball? Maybe some of the time, but not in the last 4-5 minutes of a close game.
He's said (per Windhorst, etc.) he wants to play off ball more. That doesn't mean he'll do that in the last 4 minutes of a tight game, nor should he.

But Ball should get a little more space to operate with James on the court with him. Whether or not he can take advantage of it is another thing.
 

Big John

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Maybe it could work. I see that Ball's defensive numbers look good, so maybe I'm underrating that aspect of his game. But if he can't make a decent percentage of his jump shots, teams will figure this out in a hurry and make life more difficult for LeBron by bringing over a second defender. LeBron is basically unstoppable if there is only one defender.
 

MillarTime

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Does Lonzo play good defense? I haven't seen that. And will LeBron be happy playing off the ball? Maybe some of the time, but not in the last 4-5 minutes of a close game.

If the Lakers can move Ball to the Knicks for Ntilikina and a modestly protected future first round pick, they should do it. They could add the pick to their war chest for a Kawhi deal. Orlando and Phoenix must also be shopping for point guards, although I don't know what those teams have to give back that would interest the Lakers.
His shooting must continue to improve obviously (and it did after a dismal start last season), but I think Lonzo fits really well with LeBron. He's a willing defender and rebounder and I don't think he dominates the ball...at all. On the contrary, he's an exceptional passer and a great decision-maker. Certainly would not trade him for Frankie Smokes, but that's me.
 

tims4wins

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Yeah he barely improved if he did at all. His season kind of broke down into 3 segments due to injuries:
Games 1-31: 29.7% from 3
(missed games 32-37)
Games 38-42: 32.4% from 3
(missed games 43-57)
Games 58-74: 31.0% from 3
(missed games 75-82)

If he improved, it was minuscule. His last 10 games he didn't hit more than a single 3 in a game. During this time he shot 17.2% from 3 (10 for 58).

Edit: he also did not hit more than a single FT in a game in March. In fact, all year long he played in 52 games. He hit 0 or 1 FT in 42 of those 52 games.
 

bowiac

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Lozno is a good fit because he's already one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA, he was fine as a catch-and-shoot three point shooter last year, and improved throughout the season (37% after January 1 to pick an arbitrary date), and because he lets LeBron play off the ball more, while still attracting a huge amount of defensive attention since Ball is such a gifted passer. And of course, he was a rookie and should improve substantially into year 2.

I'm pretty high on Lonzo generally, but the defense in particular is what makes him a good fit however. Obviously you'd want someone who can break down the defense one-on-one too, but if you're choosing among 2nd/3rd tier point guard options (e.g., Kyrie isn't available), Lonzo seems like a pretty good pick.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Maybe not the correct place for this but interesting article on how Pelinka and Magic are trying to reshape LAL's culture by bringing in motivational speakers like the Rock, Elon Musk, Jeffrey Katzenberg and Olympic and world champion sprinter Allyson Felix. One example here:

For Felix, speaking to the Lakers gave the six-time Olympic gold medalist a chance to put competition into perspective, telling the players she envied their opportunities to play 82 regular-season games and -- if they achieve their goals -- playoff games beyond that.

"Every year you get a chance to go to the championship," Felix recalled of what she told the Lakers. "And for me, you get every four years, [when] my chance [and training] can come down to about 21 seconds."

Magic Johnson looked around the room and saw his players realize just how much they might take things for granted.

"She said, 'I can't even pick up a pound -- I got to stay in shape for four years,'" the executive said. "You can just see they were, like, amazed by the time and work that she has to put in to run her race that lasts less than 30 seconds."
 

MillarTime

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Yeah he barely improved if he did at all. His season kind of broke down into 3 segments due to injuries:
Games 1-31: 29.7% from 3
(missed games 32-37)
Games 38-42: 32.4% from 3
(missed games 43-57)
Games 58-74: 31.0% from 3
(missed games 75-82)

If he improved, it was minuscule. His last 10 games he didn't hit more than a single 3 in a game. During this time he shot 17.2% from 3 (10 for 58).

Edit: he also did not hit more than a single FT in a game in March. In fact, all year long he played in 52 games. He hit 0 or 1 FT in 42 of those 52 games.
Yep, you're right I was looking at catch and shoot 3s only...
 

HomeRunBaker

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Does Lonzo play good defense? I haven't seen that. And will LeBron be happy playing off the ball? Maybe some of the time, but not in the last 4-5 minutes of a close game.

If the Lakers can move Ball to the Knicks for Ntilikina and a modestly protected future first round pick, they should do it. They could add the pick to their war chest for a Kawhi deal. Orlando and Phoenix must also be shopping for point guards, although I don't know what those teams have to give back that would interest the Lakers.
Yes Ball is a very very good instinctual positional defender and will improve as he gains more experience. Remember when people said he couldn't defend in the NBA? It def could work, again this isn't Simmons where I felt it would have been really awkward, but with LeBron having input in personnel decision he's going to want more experienced players in the rotation when this team is ready to compete. Priority #1 is to ensure cap space for Kawhi next year.
 

lovegtm

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Lakers hatred aside, I like these one year contracts at varying amounts a lot. The team is incredibly flexible and can do salary+players/picks for any star who signals that he's pissed off. I'm sure they'll be down to deal if SA cracks, but now they have some clear paths to dealing for other guys and signing Kawhi outright. They could put together a nice package for Jimmy Butler, for example.
 

PedroKsBambino

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In the flurry of conversation, we seem to have lost the first, immediate insight several of us had when the news first broke — that LBJ signing a 4-year deal rather than a 1+1 likely meant he had a commitment to trade at least some of the Lakers’ young assets for veteran players who can better assist a contending team right now.

Even if they’re committed to keeping a max slot open for Kawhi next summer (and I’m not at all convinced that’s true), they can and will make this team better between now and October.
Seems to me it is more true that signing a four-year deal leaves open the possibility that Lebron did NOT obtain any commitment about trading young players and is open to possibly growing with them. I say that because if his goal was to get those guys dealt, it seems far more likely he'd have insisted on it happening first, or at least on a different contract mechanism with more opt-outs, since he surely could have gotten any one he wanted.

I don't disagree that he may have an understanding with the team about such a trade, mind you...I just think logically the longer deal suggests he doesn't require it rather than that it does.
 

Big John

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I believe that LeBron's decision was based more on family and business considerations than on basketball fit. He wants to be the next Jay-Z, or perhaps he wants to own and/or run a franchise, like MJ, Magic or Jeter. If you want to do either of those things (or both), the best places to be are LA or NYC.
 

benhogan

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Kemba Walker would work. He's been rumored to be on the block, plays like Kyrie-lite, and would be a nice fit with Bron.

Lakers add 2 veteran shooters in Kemba/Marvin Williams for Lonzo/Kuzma/Deng. Charlotte gets 2 youngsters, starts re-build, but has to eat some salary. Who says NO?
 
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The Needler

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Lozno is a good fit because he's already one of the better defensive point guards in the NBA, he was fine as a catch-and-shoot three point shooter last year, and improved throughout the season (37% after January 1 to pick an arbitrary date)...
It is an arbitrary date, but I would still disagree that he improved throughout the season. To use another arbitrary date, he took the plurality of his catch-and-shoot threes in March (51 of 175), and shot only 31.4%. His pre-ASB and post-ASB catch-and-shoot percentages aren't meaningfully different. He had a handful of very good shooting nights, and a whole bunch of very bad shooting nights. Streaky shooting should be about all we should expect from him unless he overhauls that shot to make it more repeatable and consistent.
 

BaseballJones

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I'm not sure that Lonzo Ball can coexist gracefully with LeBron. Had LeBron gone to Philly, there would have been similar issues with Simmons.
My first thought on the question of who would be the third star was Ball. But then because he's not a good off-the-ball guy (no pun intended), he needs to be the one running the show. But then...so does LeBron. And LeBron is far, far, far better at it than Ball is. So it's not a good fit. I think that Ball is going to be a really good NBA player. Great vision, exceptional passer, really puts teammates in great situations. But it would be the same as if he was on OKC - Westbrook needs the ball so what is there for Ball to do?

So I think they'd be better off moving Ball to another team and get a quality shooter in return. In all honesty, maybe trying to move Ball for Trae Young would be a solid move for them, but I don't know that Atlanta would do that. Not sure what else Atlanta would need in order to take that trade. But that's the kind of player that I think LA would need - a great shooter and playmaker that probably can operate without being ball-dominant, even though he was clearly ball-dominant at Oklahoma.
 

BaseballJones

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Wasn't one of the things rumored about Lebron that he wanted to play off-ball more often and conserve his energy at this stage of his career?

If true, that means he'd be willing to let Ball run the game.

https://sports.yahoo.com/rumor-lebron-james-want-play-181240074.html

Although, to be honest, I just picture Papa Ball causing such a ruckus here that LA will be basically 'see ya'.
That may be true, but there's no way when push comes to shove in the Western semis against GS that LeBron is going to live or die with Lonzo Ball in control of the offense. And if that's the case, Ball is reduced to next to worthless, and so they'd still need a third star then.
 

queenb

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Maybe not the correct place for this but interesting article on how Pelinka and Magic are trying to reshape LAL's culture by bringing in motivational speakers like the Rock, Elon Musk, Jeffrey Katzenberg and Olympic and world champion sprinter Allyson Felix. One example here:

For Felix, speaking to the Lakers gave the six-time Olympic gold medalist a chance to put competition into perspective, telling the players she envied their opportunities to play 82 regular-season games and -- if they achieve their goals -- playoff games beyond that.

"Every year you get a chance to go to the championship," Felix recalled of what she told the Lakers. "And for me, you get every four years, [when] my chance [and training] can come down to about 21 seconds."

Magic Johnson looked around the room and saw his players realize just how much they might take things for granted.

"She said, 'I can't even pick up a pound -- I got to stay in shape for four years,'" the executive said. "You can just see they were, like, amazed by the time and work that she has to put in to run her race that lasts less than 30 seconds."
Found the piece. Incredible hate-read. Thank you.
 

bowiac

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It is an arbitrary date, but I would still disagree that he improved throughout the season. To use another arbitrary date, he took the plurality of his catch-and-shoot threes in March (51 of 175), and shot only 31.4%. His pre-ASB and post-ASB catch-and-shoot percentages aren't meaningfully different. He had a handful of very good shooting nights, and a whole bunch of very bad shooting nights. Streaky shooting should be about all we should expect from him unless he overhauls that shot to make it more repeatable and consistent.
This is a fair point (and the problem with arbitrary starting points generally). He was 35.7% post-ASB vs. 31.4% pre-ASB, but I agree that's not particularly meaningful given the number of games he missed, and the number of attempts at issue.

As I said, I am believe in Lonzo's skillset generally, so I'm inclined to view these things favorably, but your mileage may vary.
 

bowiac

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I think moving Lonzo for Trae Young would be a mistake given LeBron doesn't seem very interested in playing defense at this stage of his career. The key thing Lonzo brings to the table is defense. If you can swap him him for Kemba, then sure, but moving him for a better shooting, worse defender seems to be a bad idea.
 

Sox Puppet

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Apologies if this is a dumb question, but what's in it for LeBron to keep funneling Klutch Sports clients on overpriced, cap-clogging contracts to his teams? I'm thinking of Tristan Thompson and J.R. Smith with the Cavs, and now the total mediocrity KCP with the Lakers (on his recent podcast, Bill Simmons even went so far as to say that last year's 1/$18M overpay for KCP was an early sign that LeBron would be going to LA because of the "Klutch connection," which I don't get).

The only way this makes sense (other than doing his buddy Rich Paul a solid) is if LeBron himself gets a cut of the contracts negotiated through Klutch, but I assume there's some rule against that.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Not all point gaurds are Rajon Rondo type ballpounders. A Rajon Rondo type ballpounder would be a lousy fit with Lebron, but that isn't Lonzo's game.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Apologies if this is a dumb question, but what's in it for LeBron to keep funneling Klutch Sports clients on overpriced, cap-clogging contracts to his teams? I'm thinking of Tristan Thompson and J.R. Smith with the Cavs, and now the total mediocrity KCP with the Lakers (on his recent podcast, Bill Simmons even went so far as to say that last year's 1/$18M overpay for KCP was an early sign that LeBron would be going to LA because of the "Klutch connection," which I don't get).

The only way this makes sense (other than doing his buddy Rich Paul a solid) is if LeBron himself gets a cut of the contracts negotiated through Klutch, but I assume there's some rule against that.
It didn't matter what JR and Tristan extended for as the Cavs were over the cap.

The KCP contract is 1/$12m (not 1/18) and one that actually allows for great flexibility in doing a number of things moving forward......it adds a quality rotation player without taking up cap space for next summers presumed Kawhi signing. How is this ever a bad signing? Simmons is like Bob Ryan when baseball passed him by.
 

bosockboy

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It didn't matter what JR and Tristan extended for as the Cavs were over the cap.

The KCP contract is 1/$12m (not 1/18) and one that actually allows for great flexibility in doing a number of things moving forward......it adds a quality rotation player without taking up cap space for next summers presumed Kawhi signing. How is this ever a bad signing? Simmons is like Bob Ryan when baseball passed him by.
Last summer was 1/18. The point was it was an early sign this was in the works,
 

HomeRunBaker

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Last summer was 1/18. The point was it was an early sign this was in the works,
If you're LeBron and you have limited control over who comes with you why wouldn't you want those in your stable to go to bat with? The KCP contract is ideal for what they are trying to accomplish. I hadn't even thought of the connection.
 

Marbleheader

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SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
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So did LeBron help orchestrate the Lakers bailout at the trade deadline to set himself up this summer?