Yeah I can buy that argument. Which is why we will definitely need a competent bat vs lefties. Whether that is Swihart or they need to go out and get one on the market.
Hanley DFA'd (5/25 Update)
- Thread starter Pozo the Clown
- Start date
Swihart (8 starts, 10 games) has about as much time at 1B as Holt does (14 starts, 18 games), including the minors, so I'm not sure what the apprehension would be to play him there. I'd also wager that Swihart has done more work at 1B during pre-game workouts than Holt has so far this year. He's certainly spent more time there this season than Holt (4 innings vs 0)
Well, since you asked (indirectly), I'm personally happy to not see Hanley facing NY anymore, same thing Boone said when asked this afternoon. I understand why BOS did this, especially after the explanations from Cora and DD, but I'm always happy to see a potentially scary hitter leave BOS.
Thanks. I thought Holt played there more in AAA.
Either way, of the three guys who can play the position (unless Nunez can too), two are lefties and one’s a switch who isn’t great from the right side.
At least both Blake and Brock throw right. I love Mitch but first basemen with the glove on the wrong hand look weird.
Even if it’s August 2017 Moreland?
Listen, this is a gamble and I actually can see Shank’s POV here. The guy may not be worth $22M but he is a proven postseason player for a team built to win now and an important veteran presence in a clubhouse that a year ago had big problems. Those are things the team needs. At the same time, I think he undersells equally important points such as the fact that the FO was obviously not convinced Hanley could serve as a role player on this team – and keeping him in the lineup meant taking ABs away from guys who are producing.
I think even Cora and DD would agree this is kind of an imperfect solution but given the myriad factors at play—the $22M option but also Pedey coming back, JBJ’s struggles, Swihart—something had to give.
I do too, but the difference isn't as large as having Jim Johnson as our 2019 closer instead of Craig Kimbrel.
I forgot that Hanley hit so well in the post-season. Mookie and the rest will have to step up. I was thinking the other day that when we had Papi and Manny, I didn’t take them for granted in the post season but I figured if we got there again (after 2013) there’d be other guys to rake or we wouldn’t have got there. Not so simple. Some guys are just fucking huge on the biggest stage and some are not.
Most telling to me is Cora's comment (assuming DD relayed it accurately) that Hanley wouldn't be a good bench player. Cora doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would say this if it were pure speculation. Which strongly suggests that Hanley isn't the important veteran presence that you think he is -- or that he wouldn't be after he's benched.
This is all about the 2019 payroll. Restricting HRam's plate appearances late in the season would have made for a very unhappy player and large distraction. As a fan, I loved HRam's persona (I certainly don't know him, but he seemed like a great guy), but I also understand that 22 MM would present a very large overpay next year and would handicap the RS tremendously in their effort to retain players and improve the team.
If someone with more CBA knowledge than I could answer the following:
Could the RS and HRam have negotiated the option for 2019 away in exchange for a guaranteed lower 2019 contract?
If someone with more CBA knowledge than I could answer the following:
Could the RS and HRam have negotiated the option for 2019 away in exchange for a guaranteed lower 2019 contract?
Lind can't hit lefties, so doesn't make much sense for BOS with Moreland already around. This is why NY released him, as they have Walker in that role already (very good against righties, can't hit lefties) and now Bird is back.
I am sure Mookie, Andrew, Devers will step up in the playoffs. Honestly more excited to see Mookie at the plate in the ALDS than Hanley. I am sure they will come through. Pedroia is still on the team too, and maybe mindfacting, but seemed to always do well in the playoffs?
edit: actually, Dustin is a .687 OPS hitter in the playoffs.
edit: actually, Dustin is a .687 OPS hitter in the playoffs.
You're likely right; I'm probably not fully acclimated to this no-nonsense management style. I'm used to the old soft days where people would hit the phantom DL or Holt would go to Pawtucket or something to make room for Pedey and we'd all hope for Hanley to piece it back together for three months of suck. My mind also kinda went there cause of the recent Castillo and Cano suspensions; seems like doping control has been working overtime lately.
I don't get this. Why Holt instead of Moreland? Don't they need a right-handed batter to relieve Moreland on occasion?
Well, context matters and what Cora may well mean is that Hanley is a concern on the bench where $22 million is at stake.
I'll never be convinced that this wasn't all about the money. I guess they probably can't say that. And I get it. But it seems pretty obvious to me. This leaves a hole on the right side of the plate in the Sox lineup. I would sign Hanley today if it weren't for the vesting -- especially if I already had $22 million sunk into him for this year. This was a decision that the negative impact to 2018 was sufficiently modest to get rid of the negative impact for 2019. There is no other baseball justification, though I imagine it won't stop us from making them up or the press from speculating about it. This was about the dollars. And it's probably justified on that basis.
I was just talking about our present roster. Who plays backup? If you want to hit for Moreland against a nasty LOOGY or he takes a foul off his ankle, who plays first? It will have to be Swihart or Holt at this point. If Holt is in the game already and you want to keep Swihart on the banch, I imagine that Holt would slide over since we have two other second basemen on the roster at the moment.
But, yeah, I think they need a righty, and bringing one in means Swihart (or Nunuez) goes eventually. I know a charismatic dreadlocked dude who would fit the bill and is available, but I think that ain't happening.
I think if the Sox had a top-10 farm system or a lower payroll, or if the tax hit were only money and not draft order, they might have played Hanley all year even if he remained a league average hitter. But through a series of bad decisions, bad outcomes, player graduations, and a fair amount of bad luck, they're ridiculously asset-poor in the minors and cash is the only method they have to acquiring talent.
Maybe you should all read the newest piece from the obnoxious reporter I usually hate but who I kinda agree with here. Shaunghnessy writes:
"The move is being applauded by analytics geeks, luxury-tax toadies, and swing-path savants who permeate and pollute the game of baseball in 2018.
Swell.
I hate it. This move makes the Red Sox worse and less interesting. And it takes away the only proven clutch postseason hitter on a team that needs to prove itself in October. It sucks the color and cockiness out of the clubhouse. It takes away a big threat against lefthanded pitching. It subtracts a goofy, often-full-of-beans talent from a clubhouse peppered with millennial softies who routinely dance on the heads of the no-talent Orioles and Rays in May but have been zeros in October."
__________
Yep, I will miss Hanley.
"The move is being applauded by analytics geeks, luxury-tax toadies, and swing-path savants who permeate and pollute the game of baseball in 2018.
Swell.
I hate it. This move makes the Red Sox worse and less interesting. And it takes away the only proven clutch postseason hitter on a team that needs to prove itself in October. It sucks the color and cockiness out of the clubhouse. It takes away a big threat against lefthanded pitching. It subtracts a goofy, often-full-of-beans talent from a clubhouse peppered with millennial softies who routinely dance on the heads of the no-talent Orioles and Rays in May but have been zeros in October."
__________
Yep, I will miss Hanley.
Nope. Shaugnessey is wrong. Hanley had to go.
"A big threat against LH pitching", he may once have been, but hasn't been in a while. That guy is a turd!
"A big threat against LH pitching", he may once have been, but hasn't been in a while. That guy is a turd!
It was a toe IIRC. Not insignificant but not something that was disabling either.
I’m not saying Moreland isn’t a solid player. He is. But his offensive ceiling isn’t as high as Hanley’s and there is a reason we signed him for so little last year. He had an OPS+ of 99/80/116/87 his previous four years in Texas – and what he gave us last year was 2 points off his career average. Hanley has always had elite hitting ability. Even with his three shitty years in Boston, Hanley has a (marginally) higher OPS+ than Moreland.
Which is a long way of saying that Moreland is wasn’t really that different w the toe messed up than he was in any other year – and he’s unlikely to keep up his current pace. Whether Hanley would have bettered him is another question – but history shows, even in Boston, that he certainly could have.
Yeah. If they had started the season platooning the two players ensuring Hanley ended short of 497 perhaps they could have navigated the problem. But even us non-insiders in this thread knew they were fast approaching a point where the only options they had left were dfa or pay. They chose the former and hopefully did it in a way that won’t cause too much disruption.
I don't see that Cora was commenting on his "veteran presence" or how Hanley would react to being a bench player. I see it as Cora recognizing, correctly, that a Hanley Ramirez who can't hit consistently enough to justify being a starter is a more or less useless component to have on the bench.
Presently, Hanley is a DH/1B who can't hit and is, at best, a slightly below average defender. That's just not a useful bench piece at any price. The counter might be that Swihart hasn't exactly torn the cover off the ball either, but at least he can play multiple positions including catcher (Hanley's little gag donning the gear on Mother's Day not withstanding). That is valuable to a manager.
I also wonder where the RH power potential is going to come from...and who spells Moreland.
I presume the new-look lineup will be along the lines of
Betts (R)
Benintendi (L)
Martinez (R)
Moreland (L)
Bogaerts (R)
Devers (L)
Pedroia (R)
Pitcher 1 (L)
Pitcher 2 (R)
That's a pretty good defensive team (assuming Pedroia's OK) - everywhere except 3B, which Moreland helps out, but only time will tell if Pedroia, Devers and the 8/9 improve.
I guess one Ramirez wasn't going to change that equation much. Now a lot will ride on Moreland, Devers and Pedroia's hitting because the other lineup guys have pretty much settled into their roles.
No reason to be other than cautiously optimistic, unless you're a certain beat writer that loves banging a drum.
I'm going to miss Hanley and his always present hitting threat (and personality).
Again, as someone asked - who's the backup RHH 1B? It has to be Swihart.
I presume the new-look lineup will be along the lines of
Betts (R)
Benintendi (L)
Martinez (R)
Moreland (L)
Bogaerts (R)
Devers (L)
Pedroia (R)
Pitcher 1 (L)
Pitcher 2 (R)
That's a pretty good defensive team (assuming Pedroia's OK) - everywhere except 3B, which Moreland helps out, but only time will tell if Pedroia, Devers and the 8/9 improve.
I guess one Ramirez wasn't going to change that equation much. Now a lot will ride on Moreland, Devers and Pedroia's hitting because the other lineup guys have pretty much settled into their roles.
No reason to be other than cautiously optimistic, unless you're a certain beat writer that loves banging a drum.
I'm going to miss Hanley and his always present hitting threat (and personality).
Again, as someone asked - who's the backup RHH 1B? It has to be Swihart.
I hurt my middle toe 2 and a half weeks ago and am still limping. X-rays were negative, but I can't imagine playing baseball with it.. Anyway, I think fans don't pay enough attention to injuries, which is why I was asking about Ramirez's wrist injury in April.
Is there a team with three RHH who have a better SLG than Mookie, X, JDM? I worry about their platoon vulnerability for sure, but I wouldn't frame the downside risk here as an issue of being short in RH power generally.
I feel like a RHH 1b for the short side of a platoon (or even for mostly bench duty) will be out there if Swihart can't do it. Good chance that by the end of the season they have a guy like that instead of Blake or Nunez on the 25.
Yeah, my thought more or less. But I'm too scared of righties, so I leave them alone.Try
Lefties can be weird but that doesn't mean you should beat them up.
Sad thing is Shank isn't wrong. Hanley is a .380 hitter in 80 career postseason AB's.
When we're facing the "best rotation in history" in the ALDS, after Sale dispatches the Halos in the WC game, he's the 3rd or 4th batter I'd most want up. He's not toast. He isn't deserving of earning $22million either this year or next, perhaps, but he's not toast. Players have cold streaks. Better to have one in May than October, quite frankly.
Less interesting? I didn't realize that was an important component of a winning baseball team. The 2007 Red Sox weren't super interesting outside of a couple of players and no one had any problems getting pumped for their playoff run or felt they weren't interesting enough to watch come back against the Indians. And as far as playoffs go, he mashed last year against the Astros in a four-game sweep, but was pedestrian the season before. He's only ever hit one homerun in the postseason, in his first trip with the Dodgers. Based on his runs scored, HR, and RBI totals, though, he hits well in the playoffs but seemingly when there's nobody on-base. I'm struggling to remember one big hit that he's had in a Red Sox playoff game and I'm having trouble, maybe because they've all been losses with him in the lineup. Maybe he'll rebound and be a big bat for someone else but I think his time in Boston is rightfully up and he's not that big of a loss to a lineup that, by and large, produces far better than he does. For someone who was in the best shape of his career coming in, he's been outpaced by younger, smaller players in nearly every category. He's not a postseason stalwart who is universally feared and his production should be pretty easily replicated for less money and more flexibility. Moreland alone should do better. In almost half the at-bats, he's produced comparable numbers to Hanley which suggests that with a massive uptick in ABs there will be a corresponding increase in those categories. Good move.
Not to mention that the amount of GIDPs on the team will likely go way down with this move alone. Fitting that the last run he drove in for Boston was in that scenario.
If they make it that far, I'm going to assume that Moreland has probably hit pretty well and pick him.
Also, this is stupid.
Pretty surprised. Just woke up and have not read the thread just some news reports.
Its clear that Cora was not comfortable benching Hanley or dropping him down in the order. I am guessing he felt Hanley could be disruptive when unhappy.
Its also possible the Red Sox know that HBP against the Yankees in April has had some lingering effects, or perhaps the shoulder has flared up again.
Clearly the vesting option played a role here (DD), as well as a desire to keep Swihart (DD) and Holt or Nunez (Cora)
My only regret is Hanley seems to be a Yankee killer and has been at his best against them. Overall I an happy Moreland will be getting more AB. I do fear the temptation to have Pedroia DH will be too great to resist since he likely cant play the field every game.
I also wont be surprised if Hanley returns before the season ends with the threat of the option vesting behind them, and if injuries or trades open up a roster spot. I wont expect it though as Hanley might be a tad unhappy with the team
Its clear that Cora was not comfortable benching Hanley or dropping him down in the order. I am guessing he felt Hanley could be disruptive when unhappy.
Its also possible the Red Sox know that HBP against the Yankees in April has had some lingering effects, or perhaps the shoulder has flared up again.
Clearly the vesting option played a role here (DD), as well as a desire to keep Swihart (DD) and Holt or Nunez (Cora)
My only regret is Hanley seems to be a Yankee killer and has been at his best against them. Overall I an happy Moreland will be getting more AB. I do fear the temptation to have Pedroia DH will be too great to resist since he likely cant play the field every game.
I also wont be surprised if Hanley returns before the season ends with the threat of the option vesting behind them, and if injuries or trades open up a roster spot. I wont expect it though as Hanley might be a tad unhappy with the team
Small sample size that's rather meaningless for how he'd hit in the next postseason he plays in.
What an enormous jackass.
Yes, it makes the Sox better right now and gives them room to be better next year as well.
Or it means that in an era of for man benches, versatility is at a premium and Ramirez has none.
Disagree. Moreland is almost assuredly due to see some serious regression in a very top heavy lineup, and our organizational depth with reality based upside at 1B (and more specifically DH if Bradley doesn't come around and we end up having to shift JDM over to LF a lot more) is paper thin atm.
Snagging Lind on a minor league deal as an insurance piece if the option to do so was there would be a pretty solid get for us imo.
Whole thing illuminates the Holt over Marrero decision a bit more too.
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It isn’t only the $22 million option at stake it’s Ramirez’s ability to earn a contract at all next year. Look at the other first basemen that in 2017 had very solid seasons that went unsigned (Reynolds) or signed minor league deals (Lind).
It wouldn’t surprise me if they approached Hanley with the option of staying on the team but relegated to a platoon and pinch hitting unless injuries cropped up. Hanley would be justified in saying he’d prefer his release. This gives him a chance to go somewhere and play full time. He needs to do that just to enter next year with a contract at all.
This was a good move for the Red Sox and a good move for Hanley. They are a class organization.
It wouldn’t surprise me if they approached Hanley with the option of staying on the team but relegated to a platoon and pinch hitting unless injuries cropped up. Hanley would be justified in saying he’d prefer his release. This gives him a chance to go somewhere and play full time. He needs to do that just to enter next year with a contract at all.
This was a good move for the Red Sox and a good move for Hanley. They are a class organization.
Mookie needs to step up? If he just does what he is doing for the rest of the season I`ll be more than happy. Maybe the Sox wouldn`t have had an 86 year drought if Ted had stepped it up too.
Can't say. Obviously a roster spot has to open up and any team who signs him for prorated minimum has to be willing to trade him for a reasonable price and obviously the Red Sox have to be comfortable he wont be a disruption if he returns. Like I said I dont expect it to happen but wont be surprised if it does. A healthy Hanley can be an asset in the post season, especially against the Yankees who he seems to have some success against