Celtics vs. the Lebronaires

TheoShmeo

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A lot of the story will be that the Tatum hit knocked LeBron woozy and he just wasn't the same after. That might be true, but he hadn't done much of anything in the second quarter before that hit.

I was almost giddy after the first quarter. The Cs had absorbed the best that James had to offer, they were only down 4 and there was no way in the world that he would be able to sustain that kind of effort for four quarters. And with James going off, it tends to take his teammates out of the game to some extent. Not that he isn't also a great passer who involves them. But when the alpha is doing so much, his teammates ultimately join the rest of us in watching him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Cleveland's bigger lineup kind of took Tatum out of the game in the second half. Early on in the third quarter, Cleveland was just posting him up (or posting Rozier with Tatum coming in as the switch guy) at will. It was what Brad took him out that the Celtics started to settle things down.
 

Devizier

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Hate to say it, but the hit he took was the result of reckless conduct by Tatum. He had no real shot at stealing the ball, but a collision was certain. If the shoe had been on the other foot, we'd be screaming for a technical at least, maybe a suspension.
I was just pissed that it was an obviously unnecessary foul. Tatum was in no position to make the steal. A hard collision however wasn’t inevitable.
 

benhogan

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Thompson is a key figure for Lue in the sense that he dictates who Brad plays and when he plays them since TT is a terror vs Horford. It's critical to have Baynes on the floor for much if not all of TT's minutes or it forces matchup problems at multiple positions. So he IS a key factor in the lineups we have on the floor or else TT HAS shown that he can change a game against us......Baynes is literally our neutralizer.
100% correct.

It's obvious, Baynes should match up with TT all night. Baynes on the 3pt line will render TT useless and Aron's physical defense in the lane will help on the boards and slow down Cavs penetration. Plus Baynes doesn't really match up with anyone else on the Cavs. Love was having a field day going backdoor on Baynes.

Starting MaMo versus the Cavs small ball line up (Akron 5?) in G1 was a clever move, but I expect Brad to adjust and start Baynes in G3.
 
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lars10

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Hate to say it, but the hit he took was the result of reckless conduct by Tatum. He had no real shot at stealing the ball, but a collision was certain. If the shoe had been on the other foot, we'd be screaming for a technical at least, maybe a suspension.
This is ridiculous.. no we wouldn’t.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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This is ridiculous.. no we wouldn’t.
Exactly. He saw a chance for a steal and took it. He knew Lebron wouldn’t see him coming and obviously he didn’t. He was just a little late in getting there and thus the collision happened. If he is there a half second quicker or Lebron is slightly slower on the drive then Tatum most likely picks his pocket clean although I don’t think he would have been able to stay inbounds on the steal.

There was nothing wrong with that play by Tatum. It was smart help D.
 

BaseballJones

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LeBron: 29 FGA, 42 points
Love: 18 FGA, 22 points
Korver: 8 FGA, 11 points

Brown: 18 FGA, 23 points
Rozier: 16 FGA, 18 points
Horford: 13 FGA, 15 points
Morris: 14 FGA, 12 points
Tatum: 12 FGA, 11 points
Smart: 9 FGA, 11 points
Baynes: 7 FGA, 9 points

Basically for Cleveland it was two and a half guys. For Boston, a total team effort. Fair warning though. While right now it looks like Cleveland is dead and Boston has this thing nailed, all it takes is one Cavs victory in game 3 and the series looks a lot tighter. Celtics need to keep the foot on the gas and not let up. Don't give these guys any hope. Don't let them breathe. Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy.

 

chilidawg

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Basically for Cleveland it was two and a half guys. For Boston, a total team effort. Fair warning though. While right now it looks like Cleveland is dead and Boston has this thing nailed, all it takes is one Cavs victory in game 3 and the series looks a lot tighter. Celtics need to keep the foot on the gas and not let up. Don't give these guys any hope. Don't let them breathe. Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy.

That's beautiful.
 

Koufax

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There was no room for Tatum to maneuver around James without going out of bounds, so he crashed into him. That's reckless.
 

joe dokes

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Exactly. He saw a chance for a steal and took it. He knew Lebron wouldn’t see him coming and obviously he didn’t. He was just a little late in getting there and thus the collision happened. If he is there a half second quicker or Lebron is slightly slower on the drive then Tatum most likely picks his pocket clean although I don’t think he would have been able to stay inbounds on the steal.

There was nothing wrong with that play by Tatum. It was smart help D.
Or if there was a larger height differential between the two, then its head-to-head, or Tatum's head into Lebron's shoulder.

Hate to say it, but the hit he took was the result of reckless conduct by Tatum. He had no real shot at stealing the ball, but a collision was certain. If the shoe had been on the other foot, we'd be screaming for a technical at least, maybe a suspension.
I think this is way off. The *only* conceivable way that might even be a question is if the opposing player was known for reckless (or worse) conduct. Pachulia comes to mind.

The only way it was reckless was that reaching in like that is almost always more likely to result in a foul than a steal.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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LeBron: 29 FGA, 42 points
Love: 18 FGA, 22 points
Korver: 8 FGA, 11 points

Brown: 18 FGA, 23 points
Rozier: 16 FGA, 18 points
Horford: 13 FGA, 15 points
Morris: 14 FGA, 12 points
Tatum: 12 FGA, 11 points
Smart: 9 FGA, 11 points
Baynes: 7 FGA, 9 points

Basically for Cleveland it was two and a half guys. For Boston, a total team effort. Fair warning though. While right now it looks like Cleveland is dead and Boston has this thing nailed, all it takes is one Cavs victory in game 3 and the series looks a lot tighter. Celtics need to keep the foot on the gas and not let up. Don't give these guys any hope. Don't let them breathe. Strike hard, strike fast, no mercy.

They won that game going away after taking Lebron’s best shot and not exactly being sharp on offense. They didn’t string anything together really until mid 3rd quarter. Horford was missing open looks he usually hits until the JR cheap shot. They were not efficient on the break and missed a decent number of open looks. Cleveland cannot guard this team and it seems only 2-3 guys can score with any sort of consistentcy. If the Celtics stay patient and keep working hard and smart overall on both ends they win this in 4-5.
 

chilidawg

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I expect home court to bring out better play from the Cleveland role players. Games 3 will be close, hopefully we can pull it out at the end. I still think this will end up being a tough series, even if it only goes 5.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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I was a little surprised to hear both Lue and James harp on the home court stuff so much. Lue talked about how the Celtics dont play as well on the road, they both talked about holding serve at home...it feels a little desperate or lazy to me.

"How do we fix this? Well, the Celtics usually play worse on the road, so hopefully that happens again."

Lebron can say he has "zero concern" right now, but if your ace in the hole is to hope your opponent just plays worse...

With that said, this series is obviously not over. And, as of today, Lue and Lebron are right. If the Celtics can match the intensity/focus that they had in the first two games, they can end this series in 5. They're the better team, stay that way in Cleveland.
 

Koufax

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That talk also ignores the fact that Cleveland, not Boston, must win an away game.
 

Caspir

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That talk also ignores the fact that Cleveland, not Boston, must win an away game.
I think this is the bigger issue for Cleveland. They can talk about holding serve all they want, but if that trend continues they lose in seven games anyways. I understand their focus has to be on defending their home court, because dropping one of these games might be fatal for their season, but they also need to win a game in Boston. So far they haven't even shown that they can keep it close, and whatever Lebron's Concern-O-Meter says now, he is definitely looking at the final scores of these games and has to see that bums like JR Smith aren't enough to get him past a complete team like the Celtics.

If Kyrie and Gordon were playing this thing would be over in four. Enjoy the eighth pick, Gilbert.
 

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I'd like to see the Celts go in and kick the snot out of "The Land" in game 3 and then lay down for a game and finish them off in Boston.

As for this Celts team. Lord what Brad can do with a bunch of great athletes who are also smart guys. No one could believe Butler made the NC game and they did it 2 years in a row. Take a look at those rosters. Now he's stacked deep in talent and has more coming in a top pick, Hayward and Kyrie. Am enjoying the hell out of this season after watching the rebuild over the last 5 years and the next 5 years ought to be pretty great as well.
 

Red Averages

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100% correct.

It's obvious, Baynes should match up with TT all night. Baynes on the 3pt line will render TT useless and Aron's physical defense in the lane will help on the boards and slow down Cavs penetration. Plus Baynes doesn't really match up with anyone else on the Cavs. Love was having a field day going backdoor on Baynes.

Starting MaMo versus the Cavs small ball line up (Akron 5?) in G1 was a clever move, but I expect Brad to adjust and start Baynes in G3.
I'd expect Tatum to come off the bench if the Cavs start the same group as game 2. It was pretty clear that our lineup of Rozier, Brown, Morris, Al, Baynes was the must effective vs them. In the first quarter the Celtics had to make a few changes on matchups to try to figure out a way to slow down the Cavs. In the 2nd half Brad tried to use those changes, but it wasn't working so after 2 minutes he quickly pivoted and sat Tatum for Baynes. I also like Tatum coming off the bench vs the Cavs as he can dominate their bench.
 

lovegtm

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I think Milwaukee has to be kind of encouraged right now.
I think that applies more to Philly, who clearly blew a legit shot at the Finals. The Celtics now aren't the same team they were against Milwaukee imo, with Smart fully back, and extra rounds of play for the young guys.
 

Red Averages

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Just amazing that LeBron put up 42/10/12 and Love put up 22/15 and the Celtics ran away with the game, completely dominating the 2nd half by 20 points, with the Cavs again getting held under 100 points. It'll be very hard for the Cavs to win more than a game in this series with the current setup. They basically need the Celtics to have a poor shooting night and for some of their 2nd tier players to go off. That's not really sustainable for winning a series.

Just adding onto this - it's really hard to figure out what the Cavs can even do. They just have too many really bad defenders. Clarkson is unplayable, Nance was getting picked on when he was in, Korver can't guard anyone. So they bring in Jeff Green, but he's an offensive liability. There really isn't a lineup they can throw out there that beats the Celtics - even with their big lineup the Celtics can match up and save Tatum to dominate the Cavs bench.
 
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benhogan

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There was no room for Tatum to maneuver around James without going out of bounds, so he crashed into him. That's reckless.
I think you need to re-examine this video. As Mark Jackson said "its a foul but not dirty"

Tatum was coming over to help, Lebron's dribble got a little loose and Tatum made a move for the ball. Not at all reckless. Incidental contact.

 

ALiveH

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JR Smith should get suspended a game. Guy clearly has a history. There's a youtube video out there of his top-10 dirtiest clearly intentional hits (includes elbows to the head of Terry and Crowder when they were on the Cs). Unfortunately, it might be addition by subtraction cause he is terrible.

I wonder why Zizic is getting no run. The kid has played well in limited minutes and has great chemistry with Lebron. Also, he's a really good offensive rebounder who could give us fits inside. I'm so glad Lue is garbage (when the announcers harped on how there are two great head coaches in this series I couldn't stop thinking "are they talking about Brad and Lebron?" it never even occurred to me they were talking about Lue).
 

lovegtm

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It was funny in the postgame presser that LBJ and Love kept referring to their defensive intensity on the one possession where they trapped Jaylen in the corner and then LBJ bailed out the Celtics with a foul on Horford. It sounded like they were super proud of being able to work together on defense for one play out of hundreds.
 

TFisNEXT

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I think that applies more to Philly, who clearly blew a legit shot at the Finals. The Celtics now aren't the same team they were against Milwaukee imo, with Smart fully back, and extra rounds of play for the young guys.
Yeah we really didn't get full strength Marcus Smart until maybe game 7 of Milwaukee or even the Philly series. Game 7 against the Bucks was the first game he played 30+ minutes. It's a different team with him in there doing his thing.

Unfortunately for Philly, they'll probably be dealing with Kyrie and Hayward next time. Losing game 3 will haunt them for a while. Could've changed that series.
 

Van Everyman

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It was funny in the postgame presser that LBJ and Love kept referring to their defensive intensity on the one possession where they trapped Jaylen in the corner and then LBJ bailed out the Celtics with a foul on Horford. It sounded like they were super proud of being able to work together on defense for one play out of hundreds.
I think it was more that they both felt that play occurred when the game was within reach ... and after the foul was called, it was pretty much over. Frustration mostly.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Hate to say it, but the hit he took was the result of reckless conduct by Tatum. He had no real shot at stealing the ball, but a collision was certain. If the shoe had been on the other foot, we'd be screaming for a technical at least, maybe a suspension.
No.
 

InstaFace

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Lebron can say he has "zero concern" right now, but if your ace in the hole is to hope your opponent just plays worse...
He was asked about his level of concern now, in the postgame interview last night. He basically said "look, I have 3 kids, I'm gonna go home, see my mom... I'll be fine."

On the one hand, that's what a guy would say who has his priorities in order and doesn't get overly worked up. On the other hand, that's not a guy who's thinking "I am going to kill myself in practice the next 3 days and drive everyone else to do likewise, and we are going to come out and dismember these motherfuckers".

He may not have "concern" not because he's arrogant but because it doesn't mean quite the same to him anymore, or because he realizes he's probably outgunned anyway.
 

Koufax

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I think you need to re-examine this video. As Mark Jackson said "its a foul but not dirty"

Tatum was coming over to help, Lebron's dribble got a little loose and Tatum made a move for the ball. Not at all reckless. Incidental contact.

Thanks for posting that. It is what it is. I guess I just disagree on what constitutes incidental contact and what constitutes crashing into an opponent with little regard for safety.
 

lovegtm

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Just adding onto this - it's really hard to figure out what the Cavs can even do. They just have too many really bad defenders. Clarkson is unplayable, Nance was getting picked on when he was in, Korver can't guard anyone. So they bring in Jeff Green, but he's an offensive liability. There really isn't a lineup they can throw out there that beats the Celtics - even with their big lineup the Celtics can match up and save Tatum to dominate the Cavs bench.
They have one big adjustment left: LeBron goes to the post, every single time, and bullies his way to the rim or forces a double. If he doesn't do that, and settles for jumpers, the Celtics lock down everyone else.

The problem with this adjustment is that I don't think there's any way that LeBron can physically sustain that kind of effort for even 2 quarters, let alone 5 games. Banging against Marcus Morris repeatedly takes a lot more out of you than going against CJ Miles.

I suppose the other adjustment would be to really hit those 2-man games and backdoor cuts with Love hard, but the Celtics would just go to switchy, big lineups whenever Love was out there. That actually happened yesterday: Love abused Baynes and Rozier on a couple possessions in the left corner, Brad called a timeout and switched personnel, and the Cavs never went back to it.
 

lovegtm

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He was asked about his level of concern now, in the postgame interview last night. He basically said "look, I have 3 kids, I'm gonna go home, see my mom... I'll be fine."

On the one hand, that's what a guy would say who has his priorities in order and doesn't get overly worked up. On the other hand, that's not a guy who's thinking "I am going to kill myself in practice the next 3 days and drive everyone else to do likewise, and we are going to come out and dismember these motherfuckers".

He may not have "concern" not because he's arrogant but because it doesn't mean quite the same to him anymore, or because he realizes he's probably outgunned anyway.
This is the kind of "my life is fine, basketball is just one part of it" quote that he usually busts out after he's lost a series, which tells you a lot about where his head is at.

The dude just came out, threw his best punch, and got blown out of the building by the end while watching his teammates roll over. That can't feel good.
 

TripleOT

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Thanks for posting that. It is what it is. I guess I just disagree on what constitutes incidental contact and what constitutes crashing into an opponent with little regard for safety.
To be fair to Tatum, LBJ heads to the hoop a few feet from the baseline, but loses his handle a bit with his left hand, and dribbles the ball a bit further from his body because of the sloppy handle. LeBron moves his body more toward the baseline, while at the same time, Tatum is making his run to provide some help. If LeBron didn't lose some control on the dribble, he goes up for a layup with the ball close to his body, and Tatum flies by him and tries to strafe the ball with a reach in. Instead, they collided.
 

Sam Ray Not

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1. LeBron had no angle to the rim and had exposed the ball. Tatum had every right to try to make a play on the ball there — nothing remotely reckless about it, imo. If anyone was reckless it was LeBron for forcing the issue and trying to get a whistle (which he did) rather than realizing he had no play and pulling out. Unfortunate that he got his bell rung, but them's the breaks when you try to force contact.

2. Not sure if he had a mild concussion on the play that affected his play afterwards, but I think it's possible. I also think it's possible he just emptied his tank by revving too hard at full throttle in the first quarter. Players often say that once you gas out too early, you never really get your legs back for that game, even given a long rest (at halftime, e.g.) I kinda felt like that was the case here, even if he was able to summon some hidden reserve of, er, juice for that too-little-too-late chasedown block of Brown.

3. I bet LeBron thinks that one chasedown block will buy him another few days of talking heads saying he's a good defender. And he may be right.

4. I wonder how much LeBron relishes the prospects of a meeting with the Warriors or Rockets at this point. A 3-6 career Finals record looks worse than 3-5, even if it's actually more impressive.

5. Abdel Nader is an anagram for "Band Leader."
 
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bankshot1

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Whats the magic adjustment that turns the Cavs younger and more athletic, and more able to defend a more talented, younger and athletic team, that seems far more dedicated to the task of playing post-season basketball?

And do it for 4 of the next 5 games?

I'm not seeing it, other than a massive NBA bag-job.
 

BaseballJones

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At home, your role players tend to play better, and on the road, your role players tend to play worse. I can easily see Cleveland's role players playing much better in game 3 - Smith hitting some shots, Hood being aggressive and productive, Korver putting up 18 instead of 11, etc. And I can see Morris and Rozier having quiet nights. It's not at all hard to imagine a Cleveland win in game 3. And then again in game 4, and voila we have a series.
 

allstonite

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1. LeBron had no angle to the rim and had exposed the ball. Tatum had every right to try to make a play on the ball there — nothing remotely reckless about it, imo. If anyone was reckless it was LeBron for forcing the issue and trying to get a whistle (which he did) rather than realizing he had no play and pulling out. Unfortunate that he got his bell rung, but them's the breaks when you try to force contact.

2. Not sure if he had a mild concussion on the play that affected his play afterwards, but I think it's possible. I also think it's possible he just emptied his tank by revving too hard at full throttle in the first quarter. Players often say that once you gas out too early, you never really get your legs back for that game, even given a long rest (at halftime, e.g.) I kinda felt like that was the case here, even if he was able to summon some hidden reserve of, er, juice for that too-little-too-late chasedown block of Brown.

3. I bet LeBron thinks that one chasedown block will buy him another few days of talking heads saying he's a good defender. And he may be right.
I've noticed this as well. It's almost like Brad is playing rope-a-dope with the Cavs. Let them get out to a quick start and keep it close (game 1 they got out to a lead very early and it would have been worse but they went ice cold) and then make adjustments and attack attack attack in the second half when the Cavs, and Lebron specifically, are worn down. The Celtics aren't that deep but they are deeper with competent players who now their role than the Cavs.
 

benhogan

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I'd expect Tatum to come off the bench if the Cavs start the same group as game 2. It was pretty clear that our lineup of Rozier, Brown, Morris, Al, Baynes was the must effective vs them. In the first quarter the Celtics had to make a few changes on matchups to try to figure out a way to slow down the Cavs. In the 2nd half Brad tried to use those changes, but it wasn't working so after 2 minutes he quickly pivoted and sat Tatum for Baynes. I also like Tatum coming off the bench vs the Cavs as he can dominate their bench.
I like your idea since Tatum has been a slow starter all year. BUT suspect Brad will not change Tatum's 'starting role/status' since it may impact the kids' confidence. Just expect Brad will revert to Morris coming off the bench, as he has all season. Smart/Morris can come in and goon it up:cool:
 

TFisNEXT

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Whats the magic adjustment that turns the Cavs younger and more athletic, and more able to defend a more talented, younger and athletic team, that seems far more dedicated to the task of playing post-season basketball?

And do it for 4 of the next 5 games?

I'm not seeing it, other than a massive NBA bag-job.
The Celtics haven't been world beaters on the road, and while they looked better in the Philly series on the road, they still have dominated much more at home. I could see a scenario where the Cavs go off from 3 at home and put a lot of doubt into people's minds on what we thought after 2 games.

That said, I think Brad has completely exposed them to the point where it's going to be hard to come back. He's got an answer for every lineup that Lue tries to throw out there and the MaMo on LeBron matchup is paying dividends. LeBron looks gassed in the 2nd half of both games. Hell, he even looked a bit gassed in the 2nd quarter last night before the Tatum collision.
 

Toe Nash

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I felt yesterday when LBJ was going off in the first that as long as the lead didn't get to like, 20, the Celtics would take the game. You just can't go at that rate for 4 quarters. Plus, while he was dropping all those buckets, they weren't getting very many stops on the other end because their team defense is atrocious.

It seems like all their shooters could go off and the Cs would still hang around, probably keeping it close until the end because they can't make stops. Unless that changes this series won't go more than 5.
 

InstaFace

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yeah, whatever else we might say about game threads, there was like 1 guy panicking in the first quarter and about 10 others saying "he can't keep this up, the lead is close, it's fine, we'll be fine."

It was wonderful to see that we actually maybe have learned something after watching this team for a year.