Catching Hell

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The catcher spot has been abysmal so far.

Sandy Leon 4/31 with 8Ks and a whopping .285 OPS

Vazquez has been struggling all around. He's only hitting .185 with a horrid .476 OPS.

It's still early, but if this keeps up the team may start to look at outside options, which are also quite limited. The Rays recent success make Ramos less likely to be dealt. The Brewers and Diamondbacks are currently carrying 3 catchers. The Red Sox don't have the farm system to go get anyone of value, so the likely answer is that the team just has to ride it out with what they have. It's been an unpleasant experience so far.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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The catcher spot has been abysmal so far.

Sandy Leon 4/31 with 8Ks and a whopping .285 OPS

Vazquez has been struggling all around. He's only hitting .185 with a horrid .476 OPS.

It's still early, but if this keeps up the team may start to look at outside options, which are also quite limited. The Rays recent success make Ramos less likely to be dealt. The Brewers and Diamondbacks are currently carrying 3 catchers. The Red Sox don't have the farm system to go get anyone of value, so the likely answer is that the team just has to ride it out with what they have. It's been an unpleasant experience so far.
Finding a defense-only catcher off the scrap heap somewhere would be a big step up. I think it's time to face the music on Vazquez. He already turns 28 this summer, can't hit, seems unlikely to ever return to the pre-TJ throwing abilities that had everyone so excited about him as a rookie, and isn't showing the kind of defensive fundamentals elsewhere behind the plate that would still make him a worthy catcher.

I know there is pitcher comfort to consider but I see no reason to believe either of these catchers have some preternatural ability to connect with this pitching staff beyond what other guys would be able to do.
 
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johnnywayback

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They just signed Vazquez to an extension a month ago, locking him up through 2021. I think they have until Pedroia gets back to decide between Swihart and Leon. And I don’t see them putting any resources into adding anyone else.
 

OurF'ingCity

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I don’t see them putting any resources into adding anyone else.
Why not? It's not like they need to trade for Buster Posey or anything. Combined, Vaz and Leon are at -0.7 fWAR for the year, meaning they project to something like -5 WAR at their current pace. As M'header said, it's early, but if it really looks like neither one is turning it around simply bringing in a replacement-level catcher could be a significant improvement. I don't see them doing anything imminently but if they are still sucking this bad closer to the trade deadline I definitely think the Sox will try to make a minor trade for a better catcher and jettison Leon one way or another.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Finding a defense-only catcher off the scrap heap somewhere would be a big step up. I think it's time to face the music on Vazquez. He already turns 28 this summer, can't hit, seems unlikely to ever return to the pre-TJ throwing abilities that had everyone so excited about him as a rookie, and isn't showing the kind of defensive fundamentals elsewhere behind the plate that would still make him a worthy catcher.
Vazquez has never been considered a bat, so his lack of offensive firepower isn't unexpected.

As for his throwing, just for comparison, of active catchers with at least 200 steals attempted against, the highest career CS% belongs to Yadier Molina at 40.88%. Since returning from TJS, Vazquez has caught 38.6% of potential base stealers (which would put him second to Molina if he had enough attempts). Unless we're expecting that he was going to keep up the 52% caught rate from his one MLB season pre-TJS, I see no indication that he hasn't fully recovered from TJS and become one of the best throwing catchers in the game.

As for he and Leon's WAR...let's not get carried away. It's not as though defensive WAR for catchers is a perfect stat, and certainly isn't so in such a small sample size as 30 games. Plenty of time for that to turn around even if they don't catch fire with the bat.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'd be actively searching for a starting catcher in the offseason with Vazquez being the perfect backup candidate. He's relatively solid defensively although not the elite one we were sold on. Yasmani Grandal is a free agent and he'd be the guy I'd go after.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
Plug Christian's 2017 BABIP into the rest of his 2018 line, and his slash is .283/.330/.333. Plug his 2018 BABIP into the rest of his 2017 line, and it's .191/.238/.305. Vazquez has little to no power or (as a major leaguer) plate discipline, so BABIP is everything for him.

It's wicked early to draw conclusions, but FWIW, his batted ball mix is quite different from last year so far: lots more FB, fewer LD and GB. Which is a pretty good way to kill BABIP. Looks like he's trying to climb aboard the launch angle train, and it's not going so well. Isn't this what Chili Davis predicted?
 

MikeM

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I'd be actively searching for a starting catcher in the offseason with Vazquez being the perfect backup candidate. He's relatively solid defensively although not the elite one we were sold on. Yasmani Grandal is a free agent and he'd be the guy I'd go after.
Yeah, this. I already had him pegged early as the most likely potential FA target for us out of next year's class and with the Dodger's current LT approach/situation. Although a career year (he's come out hot at .308/.406/.538) might complicate things, since the premium position aspect probably makes him somewhat immune to the recent downward market trends.

Don't see any possible tinkering around before then though.
 

rhswanzey

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They just signed Vazquez to an extension a month ago, locking him up through 2021. I think they have until Pedroia gets back to decide between Swihart and Leon. And I don’t see them putting any resources into adding anyone else.
It seems likely that they stick with what they have, for lack of alternatives if nothing else. Vazquez's extension means we want him on the roster for an additional three seasons after this one, not necessarily that the FO wants him starting 110 games in each of those seasons. He's not cost prohibitive to keep as an active backup if we are able to find a catcher of the medium term somewhere. At the same time, with the top 6 this lineup runs out there, I'd be surprised if improving C production (and JBJ's bat, for that matter) is a high priority.

If they do look to the trade market anyway, two guys who might become available are Devin Mesoraco (CIN) and Welington Castillo (CHW).

Mesoraco had big age 22 (2010) and 23 (2011) seasons to vault up through the minors and eventually exploded for a 4.5 WAR season in 2014. He missed almost all of 2015, 2016, and most of 2017 with injuries and has been passed by Tucker Barnhart as the everyday guy, who like Vazquez also got locked up this offseason. Mesoraco, meanwhile, is a free agent at year's end, but signed this year for $13m. Not too difficult to see him get moved by a team that's already done for 2018. Would I be terribly excited about him? No, and it might be Dan Butler time quickly given his DL history.

Castillo is less likely to be moved since he was just signed to a two year contract and the White Sox don't really have a top prospect they ought to be giving playing time to instead. Although he has been over 100 wRC+ just twice in the last five seasons (109 in 2013 and 113 in 2017), he's been a 1+ WAR player in each of his last six seasons (2+ WAR in three of those), and he's much less of a durability risk than Mesoraco. Not a good reputation defensively, but you can see where he is a better fit as a 60/40 type with Vazquez starting against all lefties and select righties. This seems like a guy we would have given strong thought to signing in the offseason if we hadn't committed to giving Leon another shot. 7.25m in 2018 and 2019 followed by 500k buyout or $8m in 2020.

For LT catchers, I think you have to look at St. Louis having both Carson Kelly and Andrew Knizner stuck behind a not-falling-off-the-cliff Yadier Molina. But it's extremely difficult for two contenders to trade in season, neither one addresses 2018 production, and what would we even have on hand to send back.
 

sean1562

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so what happened to Vazquez's transcendental defense? he has been with us for awhile now and looks more like a sandy leon clone(maybe worse?) everyday. they are almost the same age, do we need to think about making a trade for a catcher that isnt such a black hole?
 

grimshaw

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I'll play the game, though Dombrowski seems to like these guys and it is very unlikely they would or could make a move until July, especially with Vazquez under contract. Would they demote him to back up a few months after locking him up for 3 years?

Here are catchers from teams that are probably not contending. There a lot of NL teams that are tough to get a read on since they are hovering within a few games of .500 or teams who aren't in playoff positions yet, but are projected to be good like the Cubs, Dodgers and Nats. The 2nd wild card is for grabs right now unlike the AL so that will limit availability for a while.

Marlins - JT Realmuto Realmuto is a pipe dream unless they move real assets from the active roster which just creates another hole. Virtually every team could trump a Red Sox offer otherwise

A's - Jonathan Lucroy - Lucroy is one guy who could be available. He's on a reasonable contract n the final year of it and is bouncing back offensively. The A's aren't half bad right now, though the AL wild card teams are going to be really good.

Tigers - James McCann McCann is decent, and cheap (2.4 mill) and has two more arbitration years so probably would take a bit to acquire.

Reds - Tucker Barnhart. Deven Mesoraco was just dealt so it's doubtful they would move another catcher at this point. Barnhart was a gold glover last year and hasn't yet reached arbitration.

Rangers - Robinson Chironos. Chironos is actually someone who would make sense since he is 33 and the Rangers are likely going to need a rebuild sooner than later, plus he only has one more year of arbitration. He has a career wRC+ of 102 and isn't a defensive liability so would be a pretty nice upgrade

Padres - AJ Ellis/Austin Hedges - Hedges has been a disappointment but still probably too young for them to give up on. I suppose Ellis is eminently available but not until later in the year since he signed as a free agent. He's not much of an upgrade on offense and is a downgrade on defense.

White Sox - Welington Castillo. Castillo just signed as a free agent and they have very little in the minors. He seems like a bridge guy.

Royals - Salvador Perez. Zero chance.

Twins - Jason Castro is on the DL with a torn miniscus and out for a bit. He is also OPS'ing .495 so would fit right in. Hard to say what the Twins will do right now anyhow The Indians aren't playing well and it's a terrible division.

Lucroy and Chironos seem like the only potentially available guys who would represent big upgrades and could be gotten even with a thin farm system. But again, unless Vazquez continues to be this execrable for two more months, I can't see them moving off course with him this soon.
 
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Plympton91

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They cannot continue to play these two catchers.

If they don’t want to give Swihart a chance, Go get Wilson Ramos. Now.
 

sean1562

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At least try swihart. I don’t understand Cora’s philosophy in some aspects of roster management. JBJ needs to sit swihart needs to play
 
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richgedman'sghost

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JBJ was sitting tonight. At least Cora pinch hit Holt for Leon in the 7th. Incremental progress I know but still progress.
 

Murderer's Crow

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Catching around the league is a black hole with there really only being about 6 or 7 productive everyday catchers. A couple of teams have moved to a platoon and seen success (see: Kurt Suzuki & Tyler Flowers).
 

dhappy42

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There are currently 7 players on the Red Sox roster with negative war.

Lin -0.1
Pomeranz -0.1
Swihart -0.1
Leon -0.2
Nunez. -0.3
JBJ. -0.4
Vazquez -0.5

Still early in the season. Lin and Swihart and Leon have had fewer than 50 plate appearances. But there’s your problem.

The Red Sox need a catcher who can hit, and who isn’t a huge defensive liability. And, sadly, a center fielder who can hit. I haven’t given up on JBJ yet. He’s famously streaky.

But what’s Vaz’s upside at this point? He’s on pace for -2 season WAR. That’s not acceptable. Needs to be fixed fast.
 

Harry Hooper

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JBJ was sitting tonight. At least Cora pinch hit Holt for Leon in the 7th. Incremental progress I know but still progress.
Of course, the PH for Leon move led to Cora letting Vazquez hit for himself later. It is Hell, after all.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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so what happened to Vazquez's transcendental defense? he has been with us for awhile now and looks more like a sandy leon clone(maybe worse?) everyday. they are almost the same age, do we need to think about making a trade for a catcher that isnt such a black hole?
Redsox catching prospects have always had much overrated defense while in the minors. Or it seems that way anyway. Ryan Lavarnway, Blake Swihart, Christian Vazquez et al.
 

Cesar Crespo

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They cannot continue to play these two catchers.

If they don’t want to give Swihart a chance, Go get Wilson Ramos. Now.
They can. They just can't continue to play them if JBJ is hitting like a catcher too. That's 2 blackholes in the lineup.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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They can. They just can't continue to play them if JBJ is hitting like a catcher too. That's 2 blackholes in the lineup.
They can "fix" the JBJ problem by going with last night's lineup more often (Martinez flipping between LF and RF based on park). At least until Moreland cools off (if he cools off).
 

tonyarmasjr

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The Red Sox need a catcher who can hit, and who isn’t a huge defensive liability. And, sadly, a center fielder who can hit. I haven’t given up on JBJ yet. He’s famously streaky.

But what’s Vaz’s upside at this point? He’s on pace for -2 season WAR. That’s not acceptable. Needs to be fixed fast.
Do you really think Vazquez will sport a 31 wRC+, .487 OPS, and .043 ISO through the whole season? The same applies to JBJ and Leon. They're being judged right now at their nadir. None of them are Ted Williams, but, at worst (see: JBJ - 2014), they're replacement level players. One good week can bump them into positive WAR territory at this point in the season. The upside for Vazquez is still a 2-3 fWAR season. A slump (even a prolonged one) doesn't really change that too much.

Also, as an aside, I find it odd that JBJ currently has a negative defensive value, even knowing it takes those numbers awhile to stabilize.
 

sean1562

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The big frustration with Vazquez is that we all know his line last season was flukey and his defense has not been good enough to carry a terrible batting line. It calls into question whether he is a long term option or a player we need to start thinking of as a backup player.
 

The Gray Eagle

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The front office just extended Vazquez. They aren't going to bail on him after a bad month and a half. He's not going anywhere anytime soon, people need to deal with it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The front office just extended Vazquez. They aren't going to bail on him after a bad month and a half. He's not going anywhere anytime soon, people need to deal with it.
Exactly.

For good or bad, the roster we're watching right now is the roster we're going to be watching the rest of the season. They don't have the chips in the minors to make a deadline deal for an inexpensive upgrade and they are in no position to take on a salary dump upgrade. There will be no deadline deals for a catcher or a centerfielder or another starting pitcher. There may be a fringe addition to the bench or bullpen if injuries really mount, but that's about it. They're going to ride or die with what they have in the organization right now.
 

curly2

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Vazquez has been putrid, offensively and, even worse, defensively. And he halfheartedly jogged on the last out Tuesday night. Swihart needs to get a chance to catch, if nothing else to show Vazquez that just because he got a contract extension, he can't stop working. Light a fire under him.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I’m wondering if Swihart would accept a mL stint if it was understood that he’d be called back up in s month as regular catcher
 

Cesar Crespo

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I’m wondering if Swihart would accept a mL stint if it was understood that he’d be called back up in s month as regular catcher
Regardless of the results? Why do people assume Swihart can hit?

Edit: If he goes down for a month and Leon catches fire, then what? Or if he goes down for a month and has a .440 OPS? It doesn't work.
 

dhappy42

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Vazquez has been putrid, offensively and, even worse, defensively. And he halfheartedly jogged on the last out Tuesday night. Swihart needs to get a chance to catch, if nothing else to show Vazquez that just because he got a contract extension, he can't stop working. Light a fire under him.
Leon and Vazquez rank 31and 32 respectively in OPS for catchers. In the AL. Think about that.

I’m not a Vaz and Leon basher. I thought Vaz was the second coming a few years ago. I thought Leon had cracked the magic code when he had that all-star like few months at the plate in 2016. But performance *now* matters. Swihart deserves a shot. It’s hard to see how he could be worse. Or significantly worse defensively. If he is, in fact, worse overall, then he shouldn’t be on the team anyway.

What puzzles me most about the catcher situation is that having three catchers is a luxury that should, in theory, allow a manager to make late-game moves that would otherwise be a little risky. But Cora doesn’t do that much. It’s as if he doesn’t even trust Swihart to be the backup’s backup.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I’m wondering if Swihart would accept a mL stint if it was understood that he’d be called back up in s month as regular catcher
It isn't a matter of accepting an mL stint at this point. In order to send him to the minors, absent a DL/rehab assignment, they have put him on waivers to remove him from the 40-man roster. If he clears, they can assign him to a minor league team without his acceptance (like they did with Allen Craig and Rusney Castillo) because with a player of so little service time, the first outright assignment is "free".

But the chances of him clearing waivers are slim, in which case they'd lose him entirely or be forced to pull him back and keep him right where he is right now.

Besides which, if the promise that binds him to the deal is that he'd be a regular catcher within a month, why the need to send him down at all? Just start playing him behind the plate now. It's not like he's a pitcher who needs to build up his pitch count before he can start games.
 

Dewey'sCannon

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There's some serious disconnect here. If Cora won't use Swihart, then why is he on the roster? The fact that he's on the roster suggest that someone (DD?) thinks he's good enough to play.

Give the kid a chance! With the way Vaz and Leon have performed, the bar is pretty low. I understood when they wanted to let the other two guys get going, but we're now 6 weeks in - almost 1/4 of the way through the season, and they're just not getting it done. I really don't think Swihart could be much worse (which is sad to say).
 

Cesar Crespo

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It's my personal opinion that the Redsox don't see Swihart as a viable catcher but it is only May 11th and we aren't even 40 games into the season. It would be a panic move to replace your catchers this early in the season, especially when Swihart hasn't hit himself and his defense is also in question. I don't think you can read too much into it, at least on its own.

The funny thing is, Christian Vazquez actually has a better OPS in the minors than Blake Swihart. He was also at the same age and level with similar results. The more this plays out, the more Swihart seems like Will Middlebrooks, a decent prospect who had a breakout year in AA, but even that breakout year wasn't that amazing. They both got called up the following year about 20 games into the season because of injuries. Middlebrooks came in guns blazing. It took Swihart awhile to adjust, but he finished the 2nd off of the season with an OPS over .800. People get excited and write off the first few seasons of their minor league careers and then the wheels fall off and everyone is surprised as to what is going on.

They were never the caliber of prospect Mookie Betts, Ben10, Bogaerts or Devers were and they don't have the minor league track record either. Not only that, they were far more age appropriate for their league. They got their high prospect ratings from one good season and from projecting what could be rather than results. Swihart also got bonus points for being a catcher.

An .830-.840 OPS line at age 22 in AA is nice but it's not top prospect. I know that is simplifying things but Xander Bogaerts had an .834 OPS as an 18 year old in A ball. He was called up to AA as a 19 year old and over the course of 2 seasons at AA during his age 19 and 20 seasons, he had an OPS of .922 and earned himself a promotion to Boston during that age 20 season. Devers held his own at the lower levels, and at age 20, put up an OPS of .955 between AA and AAA. These guys are the can't miss prospects. Swihart is a can miss, and it looks like he may have.
 

Cesar Crespo

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There's some serious disconnect here. If Cora won't use Swihart, then why is he on the roster? The fact that he's on the roster suggest that someone (DD?) thinks he's good enough to play.

Give the kid a chance! With the way Vaz and Leon have performed, the bar is pretty low. I understood when they wanted to let the other two guys get going, but we're now 6 weeks in - almost 1/4 of the way through the season, and they're just not getting it done. I really don't think Swihart could be much worse (which is sad to say).
It's 28 PA, but he HAS been worse than both of them. Leon only has 44 and Vaz only has 105.
 

Dewey'sCannon

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To be fair, Blake's ABs have been few and far between, so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that at all. Leon, and especially Vaz, do not have the same excuse. They've been pretty bad. It's not that I expect Swihart to necessarily be better, but he might be. Might as well give him a shot, since it would really be hard to be much worse.

And I'm not saying give him 4 starts a week, at least at this point. But start working him in at least a couple of times a week, and if he starts looking better than the other guys, ramp up his time.
 

dhappy42

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To be fair, Blake's ABs have been few and far between, so I don't think you can draw any conclusions from that at all. Leon, and especially Vaz, do not have the same excuse. They've been pretty bad. It's not that I expect Swihart to necessarily be better, but he might be. Might as well give him a shot, since it would really be hard to be much worse.

And I'm not saying give him 4 starts a week, at least at this point. But start working him in at least a couple of times a week, and if he starts looking better than the other guys, ramp up his time.
At the very least, Swihart should PH for Vaz in later innings against RHP. Vaz is hitting .174 vs RHP. Swihart is .270 career vs RHP.

There are NL-like tactical opportunities being missed. Even if using Swihart off the bench makes opponents occasionally bring in a LHP, that be something. Especially with Mookie batting next. Alternatively, if Moreland’s on the bench, PH him for Vaz and sub Swihart at catcher.
 

TFisNEXT

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The front office just extended Vazquez. They aren't going to bail on him after a bad month and a half. He's not going anywhere anytime soon, people need to deal with it.
Yep, and he's going to get more than 100 at bats before they start seriously reducing his playing time. Vazquez had a career .734 OPS in the minors. At the age of 26 last season, he had his first season over 300 plate appearances in the majors and had a .734 OPS. I'm not sure how true the cliché is about catchers breaking out offensively a bit later than other position players, but they're certainly going to find out if last year was his baseline (or better).
 

Hawk68

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The catcher spot has been abysmal so far.

Sandy Leon 4/31 with 8Ks and a whopping .285 OPS

Vazquez has been struggling all around. He's only hitting .185 with a horrid .476 OPS.

It's still early, but if this keeps up the team may start to look at outside options, which are also quite limited. The Rays recent success make Ramos less likely to be dealt. The Brewers and Diamondbacks are currently carrying 3 catchers. The Red Sox don't have the farm system to go get anyone of value, so the likely answer is that the team just has to ride it out with what they have. It's been an unpleasant experience so far.
Play Swihart.
 

tonyarmasjr

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I've wondered if Swihart is still even working as a catcher and thought having him catch bullpens would be a good way to keep him "sharp" in that regard. They're showing him in the bullpen in Toronto today...during the game.
 

TheYaz67

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Talk about neatly clustered suckitude - our catchers by OPS:

Swihart .450
Vazquez .447
Leon .440

Bottom three position players on the roster with the bats (obviously)....
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The Sox are playing .700 ball, their pitching staff is performing well, and Vaz has a shiny new extension. Yes, it's frustrating to see his ineptitude at the plate, but the team is very unlikely to look to upgrade the catcher position much of anything.
Fixed that for you. Not that don't want to upgrade where they can, but that they're severely handcuffed as far as their ability to upgrade...can't really add payroll and don't really have the chips to trade for even cheap upgrades. So long as the team keeps winning 2 out of every 3 games, they can clearly survive with the production they've gotten thus far out of the catcher spot. All stars at every position aren't a requirement to be a very good team.