The Nation's Tears: Volume II

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tims4wins

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I can read their records too. That doesn't tell me anything. Maybe, with the benefit of hindsight, there were signs in 96. Was the defense getting old? Was the drafting shitty? Just like maybe there are signs today with the Patriots that can put the current team future in some historical context. Maybe there weren't and we can learn nothing and people can just argue about whether the end is nigh, or the end is truly nigh.
I don't understand. They were still great in 1995-1998, then they lost their Hall of Fame QB to an injury when they were 2-1. There was no decline whatsoever. No fade into mediocrity. They were great, then they weren't, immediately, due to the QB situation.

Edit: oh and Jerry Rice moved on after 1999
 

dcmissle

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Give us a Hall-of-Fame Steve Young successor to TB and I like our chances.
 

Reverend

for king and country
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Give us a Hall-of-Fame Steve Young successor to TB and I like our chances.
Wasn’t Young scooped up from another team that had no idea what they had because they sucked?

Would anyone dare trading a QB to B.B., I wonder...
 

dcmissle

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Wasn’t Young scooped up from another team that had no idea what they had because they sucked?

Would anyone dare trading a QB to B.B., I wonder...
He got the hell beat out of him in Tampa Bay for 2 seasons. Walsh knew what he had — he pushed Joe Montana out to make room for him.
 

Briz

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As great as the Patriots have been over the last 18 year....

Can someone tell me what have the Bills, Jets and Dolphins done right over that time?

What is the ratio of Pats dominance to xXxX incompetence?
Actually both the Jets and the Dolphins have played the Pats tough at times during the Brady/BB era. It's the Bills who haven't at all.

Going into the 2017-18 season, the Pats' winning % within the division was .776 from 2001-2016. But outside the division it was ... .759.

Against teams that finished above .500, the Pats have a .610 %, highest in the league. Next is Pitt at .528.

Against playoff teams, the Pats % is .... .622.No other team has a winning record against teams that made the playoffs (Pitt and GB are at .483).

So the Pats aren't benefitting from a weak division. The Pats are beating the shit out of everyone.
I'll add to SJH's point as well as further address the "weak division" thing. Team rankings.com has every teams win % outside their division since 2003. I picked 2003 since it is as close to when the pat's dominance started as I could get. NE is #1 with 77.5% win percentage and Pitt is #2. But how do the other divisions look? Well, I took their rankings (https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/trend/win_trends/non_division?range=yearly_since_2003), pulled out the rankings from each team in each division and averaged their overall position as well as percentage to see how the AFC East stacks up since 2003. The numbers from highest win % to lowest:

Division; Average win %; Average overall rank (Out of 32 teams, lower is better)
AFC East; 54%; 16.25
NFC East; 52%; 13.5
NFC South; 51%; 14.75
AFC North; 51%; 13.75
NFC North; 49%; 17
AFC West; 48%; 17.25
AFC South; 48%; 18
NFC West; 45%; 21.5

Ok, so maybe this makes the point right? AFC East has the highest average win % but is middle of the pack in overall rank. So the Pats high win % out of the division is inflating the number, right? Well, let's pull the Pats out of it. But to do so, I think the only appropriate way to look at that information is to pull the #1 team out of each division as well so that the numbers are somewhat handicapped correctly. So pulling out the Pats, Steelers, Indy, Philly, Den, GB, Atl and Sea the numbers look like:

Division; Average Win %; Average overall rank (out of 32 teams still, lower is better)
NFC East 50% 16.67
NFC South 49% 17
AFC North 47% 17.67
NFC North 47% 20.33
AFC East 46% 21.33
AFC West 45% 21
AFC South 44% 23
NFC West 42% 25.67

Ok fine, the AFC East dropped. But that division dropped to the middle of the pack, not to the bottom. So really, outside the Pats, the AFC East is an average NFL division that the Pats just beat up on a yearly basis. Just like they beat up the rest of the NFL with an absurd 77.5% win percentage outside of this division. So really, I don't think the argument that the AFC East is weak is really that valid. It is an average division that has had a tremendous team for a long time.
 

wnyghost

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Aug 8, 2010
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Nice job answering my question with data. The Pats are beating the shit out of everyone.

It is still amazing to me that someone in the division couldn't catch lightning in a bottle one year.
 

BaseballJones

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Nice job answering my question with data. The Pats are beating the shit out of everyone.

It is still amazing to me that someone in the division couldn't catch lightning in a bottle one year.
The years to do it would have been 2005 and 2009, when the Pats were 10-6 both seasons. In those seasons, here's how they did against the AFC East:

2005 AFC East (Pats' record against them)
New England, 10-6
Miami, 9-7 (1-1)
Buffalo, 5-11 (2-0)
NY Jets, 4-12 (2-0)
PATS in AFCE: 5-1

2009 AFC East (Pats' record against them)
New England, 10-6
NY Jets, 9-7 (1-1)
Miami, 7-9 (1-1)
Buffalo, 6-10 (2-0)
PATS in AFCE: 4-2

Those were the two years when other teams in the division realistically had a chance (not counting 2002 or 2008). The Pats were, even with Brady, vulnerable, but they still took it to the division.
 

InstaFace

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In 2009's playoffs, they won in Cincy (as the Pats lost at home), then went out and beat 13-3 San Diego, then took a lead into halftime of the AFCCG against an in-his-prime Manning-Dungy team (who were 14-0 that year until the Jets themselves went and beat them in week 16). I'd call that Rexian lightning.
 

steveluck7

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In 2009's playoffs, they won in Cincy (as the Pats lost at home), then went out and beat 13-3 San Diego, then took a lead into halftime of the AFCCG against an in-his-prime Manning-Dungy team (who were 14-0 that year until the Jets themselves went and beat them in week 16). I'd call that Rexian lightning.
That win against the colts was against Curtis Painter (or whatever scrub back up qb the colts had at the time). If memory serves, had the Colts played straight up and started Manning (and won) the Jets would have missed the playoffs.
The following year they also qualified for the playoffs thanks the Detroit letting Suh attempt an XP early in the season
 

54thMA

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Obviously at SOME point it will ALL come crashing back to at least mediocrity, if not worse...................
As long as the Kraft's own the team, I don't see this happening as they are extremely savvy and understand that in order to keep rear ends in the seats and the shops, restaurants and hotels at Patriot Place full, there needs to be a competitive team on the field.

I had season tickets from 1986 through the Rod Rust 1-15 "I'm proud of my men" disaster of a season and as the team got worse during that time, the stadium was less and less full each year.

Fans around here won't just blindly go along with the program if the product on the field is piss poor.
 

tims4wins

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As long as the Kraft's own the team, I don't see this happening as they are extremely savvy and understand that in order to keep rear ends in the seats and the shops, restaurants and hotels at Patriot Place full, there needs to be a competitive team on the field.

I had season tickets from 1986 through the Rod Rust 1-15 "I'm proud of my men" disaster of a season and as the team got worse during that time, the stadium was less and less full each year.

Fans around here won't just blindly go along with the program if the product on the field is piss poor.
I don't disagree, but some level of mediocrity will likely happen. For instance the Steelers have generally been great since the early 90s. But they had a stretch from 1998-2000 with records of 7-9, 6-10, and 9-7. Since 2006 they have had three 8-8 seasons, and one 9-7 season. I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen in Foxboro. Far from piss poor, but just mediocre.
 

54thMA

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I don't disagree, but some level of mediocrity will likely happen. For instance the Steelers have generally been great since the early 90s. But they had a stretch from 1998-2000 with records of 7-9, 6-10, and 9-7. Since 2006 they have had three 8-8 seasons, and one 9-7 season. I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen in Foxboro. Far from piss poor, but just mediocre.
Understood; this 17 year run has been incredible, safe to say I'll never see anything like this ever again from the Patriots or any Boston team for that matter. The last 7 years alone; seven strait AFCCG's, four trips to the Super Bowl, two wins, unreal, then throw in the other ten and you've got five AFCCG's, four trips to the super bowl, three wins.

Unbelievable.

As has been said in a sports related movie, all things end badly or they wouldn't end.
 

54thMA

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Unforgivable error. You do not complete me.
Gee, you had me at hello.

Is this the movie where he plays football for Ampipe High, the one where he keeps getting killed or the one where he can't handle the truth, I'm so confused and on Oscar night of all things too.
 

Salem's Lot

Andy Moog! Andy God Damn Moog!
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Bruins fans will, but Pats fans won't.
When I bought my season tickets in 2008 we had our pick of 85% of the seats in our section. It was that bad. Even after they won the cup many Boston fans who were old enough to see Bobby Orr play still hated Jeremy Jacobs and wouldn't step foot in the building.
 

Al Zarilla

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When I bought my season tickets in 2008 we had our pick of 85% of the seats in our section. It was that bad. Even after they won the cup many Boston fans who were old enough to see Bobby Orr play still hated Jeremy Jacobs and wouldn't step foot in the building.
I’m hearing “step foot” a lot lately instead of “set foot”. Is the former taking over from the latter?
 

SumnerH

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I’m hearing “step foot” a lot lately instead of “set foot”. Is the former taking over from the latter?
Google n-grams says that “step foot” has increased a lot since 1980 but is still pretty uncommon and is outnumbered 20:1 or more by “set foot”.

The earliest attestation I found of “step foot” in this sense is 1813 by Washington Irving.
 

Al Zarilla

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Google n-grams says that “step foot” has increased a lot since 1980 but is still pretty uncommon and is outnumbered 20:1 or more by “set foot”.

The earliest attestation I found of “step foot” in this sense is 1813 by Washington Irving.
That’s what I thought, Mr. database.
 

Van Everyman

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Curran doing excellent work here:
Earlier this week, Jerry Jones’ offspring, Stephen, promised an “extensive going over” after “what we saw here” referring to the Patriots winning the AFC Championship Game on the first possession of overtime.

(Separately, his Dad whined about Julian Edelman’s muffed punt being overturned.)

“What we saw here.” Like the country had just been subjected to something abhorrent that would prompt painful soul-searching.

Pearl-clutching over the allegedly broken rule has nothing to do with the rule. It has everything to do with the Patriots.

Since 2012, the team that wins the OT coin toss wins the game 52.7 percent of the time. Pretty good indication the rule is working.

In the playoffs, there have been eight OT games since the rule change and five of them ended with first-possession touchdowns. Sixty percent of the time? Sounds like a lot. Yes, until you consider the sample size.

In other words, if the Chiefs stopped the Patriots on any of their three third-and-10s the other day, the numbers would be right at 50 percent. In other words, the rule would be working like a charm.

So why the hubbub? Because in two of the past three overtime games in the postseason, the Patriots were the team that did what the rule demanded.
The NFL quietly tweaked their interpretation of the catch rule prior to last year’s Super Bowl. Why? Because, in large part, the Steelers lost to the Patriots during the regular season when the rule was correctly applied. Under the revised standard, a would-be Eagles incompletion was ruled a touchdown.

Success!

The Patriots undressed the Ravens coaching staff in the 2014 playoffs with basic eligible/ineligible formationing. The Ravens cried and dropped a dime to the Colts about the Patriots and watching out for football chicanery. The NFL happily took up that cause, cost itself millions, made Tom Brady a martyr, got everyone in the league a look at Jimmy Garoppolo and still wound up giving Brady the Lombardi. The NFL responded with a formation-based rules change.

Not success.

Bill Polian arm-twisted the Competition Committee to allow touching receivers to be conflated to holding receivers after the Colts lost to the Patriots in the 2003 AFC Championship Game. The Patriots beat the Colts in the 2004 AFC Championship as well.

Not success.

From the Tuck Rule to vaulting the snapper on field goals to empowering officials to stop games and remove players if they perceive a concussive hit happened to adding defensive headsets after Spygate to saber-rattling about illegal line shifts, the rest of the teams are always looking for a chance to say, “From now on . . . ! ”

And they aren’t even embarrassed about it. They actually expect the league to step in and help them beat the Patriots.
https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/hey-nfl-just-cut-chase-and-ban-patriots
 

DJnVa

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Based on what I read all he proved is that he, and his mom and sister, can throw deflated footballs further than fully inflated ones.

But, he's a kid. And his favorite player is Jameis Winston, so he's having a rough go of it.
 

snowmanny

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The stupidest thing about people complaining about the Patriots having an unfair advantage in OT because Slater is good at calling "Heads" and Brady is good at late-game TD drives is that if they just listened to Belichick - who has always advocated for a set period of time to play OT with no "sudden death" - both teams would indeed get the ball (unless the receiving team puts together a ten-minute drive). (The easy solution I think is a full 10 minute overtime, and if it's tied after ten minutes you play sudden death and the team that kicked off in the first OT receives the ball in OT2.) Of course they would only implement something akin to Belichick's idea if they forget he proposed it first and if they think it would somehow be a dig at New England.
 

lexrageorge

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The stupidest thing about people complaining about the Patriots having an unfair advantage in OT because Slater is good at calling "Heads" and Brady is good at late-game TD drives is that if they just listened to Belichick - who has always advocated for a set period of time to play OT with no "sudden death" - both teams would indeed get the ball (unless the receiving team puts together a ten-minute drive). (The easy solution I think is a full 10 minute overtime, and if it's tied after ten minutes you play sudden death and the team that kicked off in the first OT receives the ball in OT2.) Of course they would only implement something akin to Belichick's idea if they forget he proposed it first and if they think it would somehow be a dig at New England.
Another tweak is that the transition from OT to OT2 is just like the first to second quarter transition. No possession change, so The coin flip is a total non factor. Keep OT2 sudden death.

I’m OK with the current system however. Half of the roster is for defense, and if the team that loses the coin flip can’t stop an opening TD, they don’t really deserve to win.
 

Van Everyman

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Given what we are likely to experience the next 10 days, I am all for a Volume 3 should some enterprising young mod so choose to make it so ...
 

PedroKsBambino

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I enjoy Tony Dungy's salty tears for even having to comment on another Patriots Super Bowl.
 

scott bankheadcase

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Really? I read the comments (the inital post is dumb), and the vast majority of them say either:
1. It's LeBron vs. Jordan and it's too hard to compare eras. Or
2. I love the niners, but we have to admit Brady is the best. But it's ok, he's a niners fan too

I think this is the most sane comments you could read on an opposing fanbase's message board. I mean there's a bunch that even call out deflategate as being wrong or just stupid.
 
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