2018 Raiders: The Process in the West

AlNipper49

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My apologies to the two members whose posts that I just inadvertently deleted. I was trying to break a topic out but instead hit delete.

 

H78

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Wow. That’s one hell of a commitment, but it sort of makes sense given the looming shift to Vegas.
 

E5 Yaz

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Long-term coaching arrangements always turn out bad. Just look at all the turmoil with the Patriots.
 

johnmd20

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That is a ridiculous overpay. Kudos to Gruden! He slow rolled the Raiders for years and they bit, hard.
 

TheoShmeo

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I like this. Gruden is kind of a classic Raider Head Coach.

I never thought much of his analysis but I always enjoyed the Crazy Chuckie aspect.

That he was the HC during the Snow Bowl doesn’t hurt, either.
 

tims4wins

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While he is only 54, he has been out of coaching for 10 years. I get that he has been an analyst / color man, and has his annual Gruden QB camp, but has there ever been someone out of coaching so long who returned successfully? Who are some other examples?
 

ifmanis5

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While he is only 54, he has been out of coaching for 10 years. I get that he has been an analyst / color man, and has his annual Gruden QB camp, but has there ever been someone out of coaching so long who returned successfully? Who are some other examples?
Dick Vermeil is the only one I can come up with in the NFL.
 

Al Zarilla

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While he is only 54, he has been out of coaching for 10 years. I get that he has been an analyst / color man, and has his annual Gruden QB camp, but has there ever been someone out of coaching so long who returned successfully? Who are some other examples?
Dick Vermeil, although he won a super bowl after coming out of retirement, not before.
 

DanoooME

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While he is only 54, he has been out of coaching for 10 years. I get that he has been an analyst / color man, and has his annual Gruden QB camp, but has there ever been someone out of coaching so long who returned successfully? Who are some other examples?
Joe Gibbs went 30-34 with 2 playoff appearances in 4 years (still the best coaching run of the Dan Snyder era). He was gone 12 seasons.
Dick Vermeil went 22-26 in 3 years and a SB win after 15 years off. Then went to KC and went 44-36 over 5 seasons and 1 playoff appearance.

Tom Flores went 14-34 in 3 years in Seattle after 5 years off.
Mike Ditka went 15-33 in 3 years in New Orleans and traded an entire draft after 5 years off.

Bill Cowher's been gone 12 years, he's due. So is Mariucci.
 

DJnVa

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So what's the deal with the KC game? He's still doing it right?
 

tims4wins

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Joe Gibbs went 30-34 with 2 playoff appearances in 4 years (still the best coaching run of the Dan Snyder era). He was gone 12 seasons.
Dick Vermeil went 22-26 in 3 years and a SB win after 15 years off. Then went to KC and went 44-36 over 5 seasons and 1 playoff appearance.

Tom Flores went 14-34 in 3 years in Seattle after 5 years off.
Mike Ditka went 15-33 in 3 years in New Orleans and traded an entire draft after 5 years off.

Bill Cowher's been gone 12 years, he's due. So is Mariucci.
Thanks. Vermeil seems like best case here. I don't think the game has passed Gruden by - he is younger than Gibbs and Vermeil when they returned - but it's a long time on the sidelines.
 

soxhop411

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So if BB were to reach the open market his base would be 400 million?
 

Marciano490

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So what's the deal with the KC game? He's still doing it right?
He shouldn't get to. KC coaches aren't going to give the incoming coach of a division rival the information they'd normally give a broadcaster, so it's going to compromise his ability to do the game, plus why would he criticize or praise any of their plays or decisions knowing that his takes will be analyzed?
 

garlan5

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His overall record is n that impressive. He took a well stocked Tampa team to a Superbowl win. There might be enough talent in Oakland where he can win games and compete. I don't see him doing much in the long term. Seemed he did well with one hot team that Dungy built. It's hard to get a read I what he did with Oakland his first term. He's done well for himself tough. Hell of a contract to take him to retirement
 

FL4WL3SS

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Joe Gibbs went 30-34 with 2 playoff appearances in 4 years (still the best coaching run of the Dan Snyder era). He was gone 12 seasons.
Dick Vermeil went 22-26 in 3 years and a SB win after 15 years off. Then went to KC and went 44-36 over 5 seasons and 1 playoff appearance.

Tom Flores went 14-34 in 3 years in Seattle after 5 years off.
Mike Ditka went 15-33 in 3 years in New Orleans and traded an entire draft after 5 years off.

Bill Cowher's been gone 12 years, he's due. So is Mariucci.
Holy shit, Cowher has been out for 12 years?! That doesn't seem right and makes me feel old.
 

Ale Xander

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Bill Cowher's been gone 12 years, he's due. So is Mariucci.
I could totally see the Panthers hiring Cowher if they go out this weekend. (NC State grad). Need some "non-player" leadership with the change at the very top.
 
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Vinho Tinto

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Bill Cowher's been gone 12 years, he's due.
I’ve always believed any desire Cowher had to coach again went away with the death of his first wife to skin cancer. He’s now remarried to a singer, enjoys being a grandfather, loves working for CBS and loves living in New York.
 

jsinger121

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Sox and Rocks

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The case for Gruden is that he won a SB with Brad Johnson; had sustained success despite never having a top notch QB (Gannon was quite good, but he wasn't before Gruden, so how much of his success should be attributed to Gruen?); always got the most out of his average or below average QBs (Gannon, Johnson, Griese, Simms, et. al. had their best seasons under him), and built a Raiders team that was arguably the best (certainly one of the best) teams in the NFL in the late 90's - early 2000's (they had one of the best 3 year runs that never resulted in a SB, a lot of which was bad luck: Gannon being knocked out of the 99 championship game by a Tony Siragusa belly flop; tuck rule; loss to Gruden's Bucs in SB when they clearly knew the Raiders plays).

For Mark Davis, this also helps with keeping the fanbase interested their final season(s) in Oakland and having a big name coach for the move to Vegas. Clearly, this aspect is part of what he's paying for, and perhaps no other coach would provide this same benefit)

It's definitely a balsy and expensive move by Davis.I admire him for making it, even if it doesn't work out.
 

Sox and Rocks

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Who cares? It does count against the cap and they make millions. I think this deal is a slam dunk for the Raiders.
In a league that prints money and has a hard cap and constant parity, it makes sense to overpay for quality coaching. I'm not convinced Gruden deserves to be at the top, but more owners should probably try this when it doesn't affect the cap. That's true of coordinators and other assistant coaches, too.
 

dynomite

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I can't see this working out well, short term or long.
I agree. Maybe this is a brilliant move, but there are some red flags here. Yes, Gruden is still young, and was a true savant in his younger years.

But if I were a Raider fan I’d worry that this is as much about attracting Vegas season ticket holders and corporate sponsorships — “Attend our function, meet Super Bowl(TM) winning coach Jon Gruden, and get 20% off your next meal at Hooters!” — as it is about the on-field product.

And Gruden has been out of the game for a while. Maybe it works. He’s got a good young QB and some weapons on both sides of the ball. But even Vermeil went 4-12 and 5-11 in his first 2 seasons in St. Louis. If Gruden does the same, how does that play?
 

DJnVa

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He shouldn't get to. KC coaches aren't going to give the incoming coach of a division rival the information they'd normally give a broadcaster, so it's going to compromise his ability to do the game, plus why would he criticize or praise any of their plays or decisions knowing that his takes will be analyzed?
Those meetings would already have happened though. Should be interesting.
 

bosockboy

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I agree. Maybe this is a brilliant move, but there are some red flags here. Yes, Gruden is still young, and was a true savant in his younger years.

But if I were a Raider fan I’d worry that this is as much about attracting Vegas season ticket holders and corporate sponsorships — “Attend our function, meet Super Bowl(TM) winning coach Jon Gruden, and get 20% off your next meal at Hooters!” — as it is about the on-field product.

And Gruden has been out of the game for a while. Maybe it works. He’s got a good young QB and some weapons on both sides of the ball. But even Vermeil went 4-12 and 5-11 in his first 2 seasons in St. Louis. If Gruden does the same, how does that play?
Vermeil’s first two years he had the worst roster in the league, headlined by Tony Banks at QB. Gruden inherits Carr, Cooper, a top 5 offensive line, and a top 3 defensive player in Mack. He’s not going 5-11.
 

Deathofthebambino

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If Gruden is worth $100 million, and Belichick really wants to move on. What would that make BB worth on the open market? Would some team just have to give him like half of their franchise? I mean, literally, just stroke the rights to 50% of the team to Bill? That seems about right to me value wise based on what Gruden got.
 

dcmissle

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If the contract is as described — close to $100 MM over 10 years — I don’t think it’s at all extravagant. Not based on what top coaches are making now — and that’s even allowing for the fact that owners probably are colluding no to suppress coaches salaries.

10 years is a lengthy commitment, but Gruden is 54. He’ll be younger than B.B. when he’s done.

Looking broader than on the field, this is a home run.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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If Gruden is worth $100 million, and Belichick really wants to move on. What would that make BB worth on the open market? Would some team just have to give him like half of their franchise? I mean, literally, just stroke the rights to 50% of the team to Bill? That seems about right to me value wise based on what Gruden got.
I love me some BB as much as the next guy, but giving a billion dollars to a coach seems a tad hyperbolic to me.
 

dynomite

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Vermeil’s first two years he had the worst roster in the league, headlined by Tony Banks at QB. Gruden inherits Carr, Cooper, a top 5 offensive line, and a top 3 defensive player in Mack. He’s not going 5-11.
Sure, they have a talented roster. But that roster just went 6-10 this season.

Again, to DotB & DC’s points above, this could be a risk worth taking. Hell, it’s possible they project the season ticket and corporate interest alone makes it worth it.
 

snowmanny

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You don't think having a huge name and an incredibly charismatic figure attached to your franchise as you're moving to a new city provides any monetary value whatsoever?
 

Gunfighter 09

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No, because Mark Davis has been obsessing about getting Chucky back for a much longer period of time than he has had a need to sell PSLs in Vegas. He tried to get Gruden in 2012 and 2014, well before there was a need to sell Vegas PSLs. He also already has a Vegas PSL waiting list approaching 60K names long. Yes, having a winner helps sell PSLs, and Gruden helps that objective, but this is about Mark fixing one of his father's biggest errors more than anything else.
 

dcmissle

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Sure, they have a talented roster. But that roster just went 6-10 this season.

Again, to DotB & DC’s points above, this could be a risk worth taking. Hell, it’s possible they project the season ticket and corporate interest alone makes it worth it.
And now we find out the contract is backloaded. For sensible tax reasons, but backloaded nonetheless:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/06/grudens-contract-is-backloaded/

Which means Chucky is rather significantly below highest paid in the early years, assuming these estimates are accurate.
 

Ale Xander

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I could totally see the Panthers hiring Cowher if they go out this weekend. (NC State grad). Need some "non-player" leadership with the change at the very top.
And nope, like they're reading here. On cue, Panthers sign Riverboat Ron to a 2 year extension