Oswald Commission - Russian Doping

candylandriots

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I started this thread to talk about skeleton, as that's what I know. But turns out there is more.

This is a pretty big deal.

Four Russian competitors from the Sochi Olympics were banned for life from the sport. This includes gold medalist Aleksandr Tretyakov and bronze medalist Elena Nikitina.

This is good news for American Katie Uhlaender (daughter of former MLB player) who would move up to bronze in women's skeleton and American Matt Antoine who could swap his bronze for a silver. Tomass Dukurs from Latvia would move from 4th to bronze, and his brother Martins moves from silver to gold - to complete his dominance of skeleton awards.

Skeleton athletes are extremely supportive of one another. Competitions are usually among people who have been friends for years. It's very telling that there is basically ZERO support for the Russian athletes from their fellow competitors. Everyone knew what was up, and it's exciting that this is happening. You still feel for the athletes that didn't get their moment on the podium, and I also feel for John Daly, who pushed his final run in Sochi to try and capture bronze, and popped out of the groove and dropped to 15th. I imagine he would have run his race differently if Tretyakov had been disqualified in 2014 instead of almost four years later.

In looking for another link on the subject to discuss whether the Oswald Commission will be getting serious with other sports, I see this banning more Russian athletes:

Olga Stulneva (bobsled)
Aleksand Zubkov (bobsled, gold 2-man & 4-man)
Olga Fatkulina (speed skating, silver 500m0
Aleksaner Rumyantsev (speed skating)

The commission is working to have decisions on all of the athletes under investigation prior to the 2018 Olympics in PyeongChang. Seems that Russia may be a bit light on experience once the games come.
 

candylandriots

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More news as the IOC is backing Grigory Rodchenkov as a witness against Russian doping in Sochi.

If you're interested in this, I recommend "Icarus" on Netflix, that follows Rodchenkov's story. It's pretty fascinating.

We are really seeing whether WADA is willing to stand up to Russia, and the implications of these decisions could be very important for the future of clean sport.
 

candylandriots

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Judging by today's ruling from the IBSF (International Bobsled & Skeleton Federation), looks like the governing bodies aren't really interested in standing up to Russian doping allegations. All of the athletes have been provisionally reinstated.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That's pretty sad news. I don't know anything about this stuff other than what you've posted, but I'm just curious where your interest/knowledge of skeleton comes from? Did you compete in it? How did that happen? Were you born in like Lake Placid or wherever the one place in the US that you can actually do skeleton (I don't know if you do Skeleton, race skeleton, play skeleton, etc.) is located? I'm actually seriously asking these questions. I'm fascinated by it. Years ago, I used to say I wanted to become a curler. There's actually (or there was) a pretty big curling club or something in Wayland, MA. But like so many other ideas I've had, that one just disappeared into the abyss of nonsense that I choose to actually spend my time on.
 

SumnerH

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That's pretty sad news. I don't know anything about this stuff other than what you've posted, but I'm just curious where your interest/knowledge of skeleton comes from? Did you compete in it? How did that happen? Were you born in like Lake Placid or wherever the one place in the US that you can actually do skeleton (I don't know if you do Skeleton, race skeleton, play skeleton, etc.) is located? I'm actually seriously asking these questions. I'm fascinated by it. Years ago, I used to say I wanted to become a curler. There's actually (or there was) a pretty big curling club or something in Wayland, MA. But like so many other ideas I've had, that one just disappeared into the abyss of nonsense that I choose to actually spend my time on.
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/1st-ebola-case-in-the-us.5906/page-14#post-922849
 

Deathofthebambino

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Well, that's fucking awesome, and pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Pretty proud of myself for nailing the Lake Placid connection.

Although, I still don't know what the verb is to doing skeleton? I mean, it can't just be "race skeleton," because what if it's practice? Do you sled skeleton? Run skeleton? Slide? Scream "Holy fucking shit, I'm skeletoning?"
 

SumnerH

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Well, that's fucking awesome, and pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Pretty proud of myself for nailing the Lake Placid connection.

Although, I still don't know what the verb is to doing skeleton? I mean, it can't just be "race skeleton," because what if it's practice? Do you sled skeleton? Run skeleton? Slide? Scream "Holy fucking shit, I'm skeletoning?"
I think it's sliding, but jkempa will know for sure.
 

Mr. Wednesday

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There's actually (or there was) a pretty big curling club or something in Wayland, MA.
Broomstones is still going strong. There's also been an explosion of other clubs in MA. I know of the following: South Shore (arena ice in, I think, Brockton), North End (just started up I think at an MDC rink in Boston), Merrimack Valley (rents from Nashua CC), Marlborough (arena ice at either the NESC or a public rink), Blackstone Valley (arena ice in Hopedale), and Pittsfield (arena ice in the Boy's Club). I'd imagine there's something in the Connecticut River valley, but I don't know for sure.
 
Years ago, I used to say I wanted to become a curler. There's actually (or there was) a pretty big curling club or something in Wayland, MA. But like so many other ideas I've had, that one just disappeared into the abyss of nonsense that I choose to actually spend my time on.
See, I had that same idea, but I decided to do something about it - and three years later, I'm a skip for the first time in my curling club in Edinburgh and enjoy the heck out of the sport.

Back to the topic at hand, there are real rumblings that Russia will get kicked out of the Olympics tomorrow...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/42224731

...and as someone with a real stake in the decision, insofar as I now commentate on the Russian hockey league (KHL) and will be commentating on the Olympic hockey tournament, I'm really torn about what should happen. I feel like most of the Russian athletes, those whose activities are generally directed by the Russian Olympic Federation, probably do deserve to get kicked out of Olympics: the case for the prosecution is pretty damning. But in the case of the men's hockey team and its players, I feel like they operate in a rather different world - the KHL is an open league whose players will form the backbone of many countries' teams at the Olympics (the KHL and the AHL are probably the best two leagues from whom players will be selected), and they all operate under the same doping rules and regulations. And those rules do have teeth, at least on occasion: one of the three players to ever win the KHL MVP award in its 10-year history to date, Denis Zaripov, was given a two-year doping ban this past summer that was only reduced to a six-month ban a few weeks ago after he appealed to the CAS in Switzerland. (The irony of a Russian player being found guilty of doping in Russia and then having that ban overturned on appeal outside of Russia is curious.) I don't think the IOC would leave the men's hockey team intact while banning everyone else, but letting guys from the KHL represent the US, Canada, Sweden, Finland etc. but not Russia would feel more than a little bizarre to me.
 

canderson

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Here's the NYT story: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/05/sports/olympics/ioc-russia-winter-olympics.html

LAUSANNE, Switzerland — Russia’s Olympic team has been barred from the 2018 Winter Games in Pyeongchang, South Korea. The country’s government officials are forbidden to attend, its flag will not be displayed at the opening ceremony and its anthem will not sound. Any athletes from Russia who receive special dispensation to compete will do so as individuals wearing a neutral uniform, and the official record books will forever show that Russia won zero medals.

That was the punishment issued Tuesday to the proud sports juggernaut that has long used the Olympics as a show of global force but was exposed for systematic doping in previously unfathomable ways. The International Olympic Committee, after completing its own prolonged investigations that reiterated what had been known for more than a year, handed Russia penalties for doping so severe they were without precedent in Olympics history.
 

PedroSpecialK

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Real shame after that completely above-board World Cup draw

edit: Having said that, obviously it is awful for the clean athletes who have been preparing for 2018
 

InstaFace

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edit: Having said that, obviously it is awful for the clean athletes who have been preparing for 2018
After all the revelations, how would you even know which they are? Every interview I see with the banned ones, they're basically crying that they were framed, or that the ministry of sport threatened their families unless they did it, or whatever. There are no saints here.

In allowing clean athletes to compete, the International Olympic Committee said Tuesday they would do so under the name "Olympic Athlete from Russia" (OAR).
Their medal hopes may be Shattered, but at least they'll come away from it with Love and Memories.
 

Ale Xander

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They can still compete, just under the Olympic flag.
How do the hockey players, especially if amateur, organize themselves? Are they even eligible to form a team?

Can the figure skaters send as many competitors as they want now?

(furthermore, started a thread of its own for 2018, didn;t realize what "Oswald" meant before now)
 

21st Century Sox

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Real shame after that completely above-board World Cup draw

edit: Having said that, obviously it is awful for the clean athletes who have been preparing for 2018
Agreed, but having watched Icarus I think that number is tiny, and hope those few can complete neutrally....
 

candylandriots

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My Facebook feed is full of athletes praising the decision. Here's skeleton athlete Matt Antoine:

He says he was "truly in shock" when he heard the IOC ruling that will bar Russia from Pyeongchang and allow clean Russian athletes to compete under the Olympic flag.

"It is without a doubt the correct decision and the only option that allows for athletes, nations, and fans to continue to believe in the Olympic movement," Antoine said.

Antoine says the decision was bold, and that athletes are celebrating the IOC's stance.

"Dedicated athletes around the world thank you," Antoine said.
Interestingly, there has been some strange stuff on FB that reminds me a little of what was alleged about the election here. Odd defenses of Russian practices, and the weirdest was from last week. It was a press release from the Russian Bobsled & Skeleton Federation stating that Martins Dukurs, "The newly minted fake Olympic Champion from Latvia so violently celebrated his artificial victory so he missed the bus."

I can't read Russian nearly well enough to tell if that's really what it said (I'm relying on someone else's translation) - nor do I know what the "missing the bus" is referring to.
 

Spelunker

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Broomstones is still going strong. There's also been an explosion of other clubs in MA. I know of the following: South Shore (arena ice in, I think, Brockton), North End (just started up I think at an MDC rink in Boston), Merrimack Valley (rents from Nashua CC), Marlborough (arena ice at either the NESC or a public rink), Blackstone Valley (arena ice in Hopedale), and Pittsfield (arena ice in the Boy's Club). I'd imagine there's something in the Connecticut River valley, but I don't know for sure.
There's one in Falmouth as well. A friend of mine that was a case worker on the Cape took it up because in winter the choices were either curling or heroin, and it's easier to drink beer while curling.
 

candylandriots

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One other interesting thing that I remember is that Russia's rise to prominence in Skeleton and Bobsled really started around 2007 or so (if I remember right). Which was more or less in line with the timing for a major sponsorship deal for them with Gazprom. Not that is necessarily indicative of anything related to doping, but it does demonstrate the degree to which sport is supported by the Russian government, in ways that are clearly different from prevailing practice elsewhere in the world. The numbers I heard (which were total hearsay) were very large -- tens of millions of dollars.

No word whether Gazprom head Viktor Zubkov (and former Russian PM) is of any relation to bobsled pilot Alexander Zubkov :)
 

PedroSpecialK

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cshea

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See, I had that same idea, but I decided to do something about it - and three years later, I'm a skip for the first time in my curling club in Edinburgh and enjoy the heck out of the sport.

Back to the topic at hand, there are real rumblings that Russia will get kicked out of the Olympics tomorrow...

http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/42224731

...and as someone with a real stake in the decision, insofar as I now commentate on the Russian hockey league (KHL) and will be commentating on the Olympic hockey tournament, I'm really torn about what should happen. I feel like most of the Russian athletes, those whose activities are generally directed by the Russian Olympic Federation, probably do deserve to get kicked out of Olympics: the case for the prosecution is pretty damning. But in the case of the men's hockey team and its players, I feel like they operate in a rather different world - the KHL is an open league whose players will form the backbone of many countries' teams at the Olympics (the KHL and the AHL are probably the best two leagues from whom players will be selected), and they all operate under the same doping rules and regulations. And those rules do have teeth, at least on occasion: one of the three players to ever win the KHL MVP award in its 10-year history to date, Denis Zaripov, was given a two-year doping ban this past summer that was only reduced to a six-month ban a few weeks ago after he appealed to the CAS in Switzerland. (The irony of a Russian player being found guilty of doping in Russia and then having that ban overturned on appeal outside of Russia is curious.) I don't think the IOC would leave the men's hockey team intact while banning everyone else, but letting guys from the KHL represent the US, Canada, Sweden, Finland etc. but not Russia would feel more than a little bizarre to me.
The fallout with the hockey tournament will be interesting. The KHL had threatened to continue play and not allow any players from their league participate in the Olympics if Russia got banned. If they follow through, the player pool will be severely limited.

Also interesting to see what happens with the Russian team- Do guys like Kovalchuk and Datsyuk apply and try to play under the OAR flag, if the KHL lets them go?
 

Fred not Lynn

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My Facebook feed is full of athletes praising the decision. Here's skeleton athlete Matt Antoine
This decision is almost totally meaningless. It’s PR and spin, with almost zero actual consequence. I don’t understand this guy’s enthusiasm at all.
 

candylandriots

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This decision is almost totally meaningless. It’s PR and spin, with almost zero actual consequence. I don’t understand this guy’s enthusiasm at all.
Are you saying you don’t think the IOC is going to go through with the ban?

This is very likely to allow Matt to swap his bronze medal for silver from Sochi, and takes away a serious competitor from PyeongChang, so I think some enthusiasm is to be expected.
 

swiftaw

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Hmm, the Olympic Hockey tournament is pretty screwed. NHL players were already not going, and the KHL has said that because Russia is banned they aren't allowing their players to go either.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Are you saying you don’t think the IOC is going to go through with the ban?

This is very likely to allow Matt to swap his bronze medal for silver from Sochi, and takes away a serious competitor from PyeongChang, so I think some enthusiasm is to be expected.
This ban, and the results of Sochi are two different issues...and this so-called ban just makes the same athletes wear different uniforms. It’s an actual ban if they aren’t allowed to show up and race...anything less is just a change of clothes
 

candylandriots

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This ban, and the results of Sochi are two different issues...and this so-called ban just makes the same athletes wear different uniforms. It’s an actual ban if they aren’t allowed to show up and race...anything less is just a change of clothes
The athletes who will be given the opportunity to compete under the Olympic flag must prove their innocence first. That means there are going to be an awful lot (majority) of competitors from Sochi that aren’t allowed to compete in South Korea. In skeleton in particular, all of Russia’s top athletes will be banned.
 

crystalline

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Per numerous sources, Russia has been barred from the 2018 Olympics.
Wow. I didn't expect this. I don't think Russia is going to take this lying down - but maybe.

Rodchenkov is still in the witness protection program.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Let’s see what the actual burden to “prove their innocence” is.

Personally, I’d love this to be a catalyst to remove nationality from the Olympic qualification process altogether...
 

canderson

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America may show Russian solidarity and pull out of the Olympics too.

WH Press Secretary Sarah Sanders said today they haven't decided whether the US will participate.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Could you connect those dots, please?
I mean let the best athletes in Earth participate - with no regard to what country they’re from, what convenient passport they inherited from their grandfather or which particular country grants citizenship to “free agents” who can help their medal count.

If that means there are too many Dutch speed skaters and Brazilian volleyball players so be it, they deserve to be there. It kind of sucks to watch the Olympics eating cold cereal in your underwear knowing you’re capable of a top ten finish on a good day, but not top four at the trials on a bad one...

Want to see pretty flags and sing more anthems, go to Disneyland and ride “It’s a Small World”. When I watch sports, I want to see the best athletes, period.

Anyone ever watch an NFL game and think, “There’s too many Americans out there. Let’s replace some of them with Swedes”?
 
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The Needler

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I mean let the best athletes in Earth participate - with no regard to what country they’re from, what convenient passport they inherited from their grandfather or which particular country grants citizenship to “free agents” who can help their medal count.

If that means there are too many Dutch speed skaters and Brazilian volleyball players so be it, they deserve to be there. It kind of sucks to watch the Olympics eating cold cereal in your underwear knowing you’re capable of a top ten finish on a good day, but not top four at the trials on a bad one...

Want to see pretty flags and sing more anthems, go to Disneyland and ride “It’s a Small World”. When I watch sports, I want to see the best athletes, period.

Anyone ever watch an NFL game and think, “There’s too many Americans out there. Let’s replace some of them with Swedes”?
You've just cut worldwide viewership by at least 50% immediately, and worldwide funding for Olympic sports by even more than that.

Nobody is watching without the nationalist angle. Nobody even watches these sports in their annual World Championships with that angle present.
 

SumnerH

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You've just cut worldwide viewership by at least 50% immediately, and worldwide funding for Olympic sports by even more than that.

Nobody is watching without the nationalist angle. Nobody even watches these sports in their annual World Championships with that angle present.
Yeah, the inter-nation competition is the whole point of the Olympics, and one of the more interesting parts of watching. If you scrap that you may as well just eliminate the whole thing,
 

Ale Xander

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I mean let the best athletes in Earth participate - with no regard to what country they’re from, what convenient passport they inherited from their grandfather or which particular country grants citizenship to “free agents” who can help their medal count.

If that means there are too many Dutch speed skaters and Brazilian volleyball players so be it, they deserve to be there. It kind of sucks to watch the Olympics eating cold cereal in your underwear knowing you’re capable of a top ten finish on a good day, but not top four at the trials on a bad one...

Want to see pretty flags and sing more anthems, go to Disneyland and ride “It’s a Small World”. When I watch sports, I want to see the best athletes, period.

Anyone ever watch an NFL game and think, “There’s too many Americans out there. Let’s replace some of them with Swedes”?
How do you do team sports without something to group them?
 

candylandriots

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Another strange development in a story full of them. The IBSF Doping Hearing Panel voted to clear Aleksandr Tretyakov and Aleksandr Zubkov, gold medalists in Sochi in skeleton and bobsled, respectively.

The IBSF Executive Committee is challenging the verdict of its own doping commission in front of the Court of Arbitration for Sport.

Interesting to note is that Gazprom is one of the main sponsors of the IBSF. I’m told the sponsorship is officially worth €3.5 million per year. Draw your own conclusions from there.

http://www.ibsf.org/de/news/20410-ibsf-executive-committee-will-challenge-hearing-panel-decision-against-provisional-suspension-in-front-of-cas
 

candylandriots

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Welp....

The CAS refused to hear the case, so the Russian skeleton and Bobsled athletes have their reinstatement upheld, and are free to compete in all competitions.