2017 Cowboys: NoMo' Romo (or playoffs)

Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
So this is interesting:
Sources said the two sides have discussed the possibility of a settlement. This should come as no surprise. There has been dialogue behind the scenes, one source asserts, after each court ruling along the way.

The level of sincerity present in those previous discussions is open to debate.
Click to expand...
Unless Zeke is ready to allow a settlement to be seen as an admission of guilt, I don't see how this would even be possible. And from the NFL side, it could weaken their position by setting a precedent for future cases.

That, plus the bolded, makes it feel like this is more about both sides probing each other for weaknesses than anything resembling an eventuality.
 
edmunddantes

edmunddantes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2015
4,737
Cali
Bosoxen said:
So this is interesting:

Unless Zeke is ready to allow a settlement to be seen as an admission of guilt, I don't see how this would even be possible. And from the NFL side, it could weaken their position by setting a precedent for future cases.

That, plus the bolded, makes it feel like this is more about both sides probing each other for weaknesses than anything resembling an eventuality.
Click to expand...
Remember they wanted Brady to admit guilt in deflategate for that negotiation of reduced suspension. I doubt it's any different here.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,837
AZ
dcmissle said:
I think the Brady route is more likely, but as this case indicates, these matters can unfold in weird ways. If the judge wants to slow roll this not to impact the 2017 season, he can.
Click to expand...
Right. Also, in Brady they agreed to expedite and resolve the case entirely on the papers. And even then he got through the season. That may not be possible here.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
Perfect. Going into the toughest three game stretch of the season and just when the team was looking like the season might not be a total loss after all.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,837
AZ
Boy, what a terrible decision.

In the end, I think I would probably agree with the judge ruling on the merits of Zeke's challenge to the arbitration. It was my very first instinct way back in this thread. The NFLPA got to argue Kia Robert's findings to the arbitrator. That is probably good enough under the arbitration standards.

But her rulings on irreparable injury are crazy. She basically decides that the NFL has a more weighty interest in getting suspensions served quickly than players do in playing games. That's nuts. He should get his day in court. If the NFL wins then they suspend him next year. Great. But if he wins he's basically already lost. I don't get it at all and think it's a crap ruling.

I seriously doubt it will get overturned, but it might.
 
dcmissle

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
koufax32 said:
Is there any way this gets put on hold again or is it over now?
Click to expand...
If the Second Circuit grants a stay and imposes a PI, or perhaps a TRO with a mandate that the judge reconsider the issue -- cuz she massively screwed up irreparable harm, as Denny notes.

If the Second Circuit doesn't act this way, the playing portion of this case will be done and the suspension will be served. Should know soon.
 
Cellar-Door

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,642
Irreparable harm isn't based on balancing it isn't whether the NFL has a greater interest, just if Elliott meets the irreparable harm standards

She's saying that Elliott can be compensated monetarily if he wins for lost pay, and that not being able to play and damage to reputation are not concrete enough economic damages to meet the 2nd circuit standard for irreparable harm.
It isn't getting stayed for that, it's a reasonable decision on that point. There is no real economic harm to Elliott in not playing, as he has no performance bonuses in his deal.


Edit ah now I see her benefit of the bargain language, so she's saying that even if a suspension in itself is an irreparable harm, that is countered by the interest of the NFL in getting what they bargained for in CBA. I don't think she needed that language, her ruling wash fine without it.
Even so benefit of the bargain is a pretty solid counter to a minor harm.
 
Last edited:
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
koufax32 said:
Is there any way this gets put on hold again or is it over now?
Click to expand...
I don't know the overall path but I have seen that he can appeal the decision. Though I honestly have no idea how much time that would buy, if any, or whether it would even happen fast enough to allow him to play this weekend.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,837
AZ
Cellar-Door said:
Irreparable harm isn't based on balancing it isn't whether the NFL has a greater interest, just if Elliott meets the irreparable harm standards

She's saying that Elliott can be compensated monetarily if he wins for lost pay, and that not being able to play and damage to reputation are not concrete enough economic damages to meet the 2nd circuit standard for irreparable harm.
It isn't getting stayed for that, it's a reasonable decision on that point. There is no real economic harm to Elliott in not playing, as he has no performance bonuses in his deal.


Edit ah now I see her benefit of the bargain language, so she's saying that even if a suspension in itself is an irreparable harm, that is countered by the interest of the NFL in getting what they bargained for in CBA. I don't think she needed that language, her ruling wash fine without it.
Even so benefit of the bargain is a pretty solid counter to a minor harm.
Click to expand...
Even without the nonsense about the bargained right on the NFL's side I disagree pretty firmly with her analysis. Monetary damages can't compensate an NFL player for wrongful deprivation of more than a third of a season. The NFLPA actually submitted significant evidence on the point. The NFL's response was pretty weak. No transcript of the hearing, but as I understand Clement's only argument it was that if Zeke gets injured he could undermine the suspension by dropping the appeal and serving it with games he'd miss anyway. That's sheer speculation, and it also suggests that Zeke wouldn't continue to appeal in order to get his salary back and clear his name.

I think it's a terrible precedent on irreparable injury. It's so easy in this case to identify what the status quo is and there's no downside to preserving it. I don't understand how she talked herself into it. I think pretty much every judge in every sport that has considered the question has found that wrongfully depriving a pro athlete of the right to play has irreparable components.
 
dcmissle

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
Greg29fan said:
At least we'll get to watch Jerrah nuke Goodell out of the NFL offices as retribution.
Click to expand...
Um, yeah —

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/11/02/some-think-jerry-jones-was-behind-the-papa-johns-rant/

I’m really conflicted about this.

I think you guys are getting screwed on Elliott, have no use for Goodell and really hate the NFL disciplinary process being used by teams as a competitive weapon.

On the other hand, JJ acting like the head of Ewing Oil pisses me off. What’s happening here is clear enough — if other teams get screwed, fine enough — Roger has a tough job. Screw with me, then it’s every weapon at my disposal.

11 year old boys = NFL owners.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
I knew I smelled a rat when I saw the story about Papa John's using the anthem issue as a scapegoat for the shitty sales numbers of their shitty pizza.
dcmissle said:
11 year old boys = NFL owners.
Click to expand...
Frankly, I think this is unfair to the 11 year-olds.
 
NYCSox

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 19, 2004
10,476
Some fancy town in CT
Bosoxen said:
Yay? This whole thing is exhausting.
Click to expand...
DC understands the whole appellate mechanism far better than I (as a transactional lawyer) but this seems to indicate (to me anyway) that he has a shot with the circuit court in getting an injunction. It might not be a great shot but it's non-zero.
 
dcmissle

dcmissle

Deflatigator
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Aug 4, 2005
28,269
NYCSox said:
DC understands the whole appellate mechanism far better than I (as a transactional lawyer) but this seems to indicate (to me anyway) that he has a shot with the circuit court in getting an injunction. It might not be a great shot but it's non-zero.
Click to expand...
Agree.

If I’m Garrett, I wear Elliott out vs KC. 30 carries. Because KC struggles against the run, because Dallas’ defense is good but not great, and because there is a decent chance this suspension will be served at some point this season.
 
BigSoxFan

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,216
Does Zeke's suspension count for just the regular season or do postseason games (if applicable) count as well? I presume the latter so, if that's correct, then Zeke/Cowboys will need to make some decisions soon.
 
TFisNEXT

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,537
BigSoxFan said:
Does Zeke's suspension count for just the regular season or do postseason games (if applicable) count as well? I presume the latter so, if that's correct, then Zeke/Cowboys will need to make some decisions soon.
Click to expand...
Yeah they need to sit him by the first Philly game in order to have him come back for week 17 (I assume you want him to play a game to shake the rust off should they be in a playoff position). Cowboys don't have an easy schedule, but the stretch of games after Atlanta might be ideal...yeah, there's a Philly game in there but they also host the Chargers, Redskins, and the @NYG and @OAK games don't look as tough as they did in the beginning of the season.

Of course, maybe he gets an injunction and it also becomes clear they wont resolve it until the offseason....that's obviously the best case scenario for the Cowboys.
 
Greg29fan

Greg29fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
20,502
NC
BigSoxFan said:
Does Zeke's suspension count for just the regular season or do postseason games (if applicable) count as well?
Click to expand...
The letter specifically says regular season games, so they are already planning an appeal if it gets to that point

Also

 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,837
AZ
It's unclear to what extent the court, or at least a judge, played in granting the administrative stay. Nor is it clear what the standard is.

My guess is there was some level of judicial involvement -- probably by a motions panel or duty judge who believed there was at least a reasonable possibility the ultimate panel would like the status quo maintained.

A couple of other observations. The district judge does not appear to be a very sharp knife. Her opinion is awful. Equally awful is the order she entered after the NFLPA asked her for a stay pending their appeal. She wrote an order in which it was clear she was offended, and she took the unusual step of saying she was "surprised" that the NFLPA asked her for a stay pending appeal. The problem is that absent exceptional circumstances -- like the Warden is about to pull the electric chair switch -- you must ask the district court for a stay pending appeal before you ask the appellate court. It's a fundamental rule of appellate procedure. This is Judge School 101 stuff.

Also, the NFLPA's reply in support of the stay is the best brief they have written in Brady 1, 2 or this case. They must have someone else on the team. Or they moved Kessler to the side. It is light years better than anything previous. It is only eight pages, but it is pithy, focused and slaps Clement around pretty good, which is tough to do. The law is not favorable in the Second Circuit so they are still not dealing from a position of strength, but they gave themselves a puncher's chance.
 
BigSoxFan

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,216
Assuming this is it:

@Falcons
Eagles
Chargers
Redskins
@giants
@Raiders

I think 4-2 or 3-3 is possible. Key is winning at least one of the next two. After that, the schedule isn’t terrible.
 
DennyDoyle'sBoil

DennyDoyle'sBoil

Found no thrill on Blueberry Hill
SoSH Member
Sep 9, 2008
42,837
AZ
Greg29fan said:
And that's it cause he's basically out of options now.
Click to expand...
Not 100 percent but pretty close. It's all hail marys at this point and not hail marys by like Doug Floutie or Aaron Rodgers either. More like Larry the Cable Guy.

I think his undoing was ultimately the merits. He had a nice fact that was good in the media -- the investigator did not participate when the NFL made the decision to suspend and Goodell apparently didn't have her input. His problem was that by the time the case got to arbitration he was able to explore all of that in front of the arbitrator and the arbitrator rejected his case. Zeke is getting a raw deal here, but those are arbitration standards.

The courts' rulings on whether suspensions are irreparable are shit. But, in the end, I don't think that was what mattered. There was a fundamental defect in the case from the outset. Kessler did a nice job of disguising it. In the end, I think Zeke largely accomplished what Brady did. In the court of public opinion he's raised a significant doubt whether the court was a kangaroo court and whether he's been falsely accused. Until the CBA is changed, I don't think a player has much chance to do much more than that at least in the Second Circuit.
 
TFisNEXT

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,537
BigSoxFan said:
Assuming this is it:

@Falcons
Eagles
Chargers
Redskins
@giants
@Raiders

I think 4-2 or 3-3 is possible. Key is winning at least one of the next two. After that, the schedule isn’t terrible.
Click to expand...
The Chargers/Redskins/Giants/Raiders stretch is where they really need to go 3-1. Even without Zeke, the Cowboys are a superior team to all 4 of them. It's not like they have dreks behind him.

The division was already hanging by a thread, but this finishes it off. They'll be playing for a wildcard.
 
BigSoxFan

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,216
TFisNEXT said:
The Chargers/Redskins/Giants/Raiders stretch is where they really need to go 3-1. Even without Zeke, the Cowboys are a superior team to all 4 of them. It's not like they have dreks behind him.

The division was already hanging by a thread, but this finishes it off. They'll be playing for a wildcard.
Click to expand...
Yup. Cowboys without Zeke are good enough to win 3 of 4, if not all of those games.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
Indeed. The only team that would even remotely slow down the running game in its current state - even sans Zeke - would be Philly. I think they'll be fine for the most part and the biggest question still remains whether the defense's performance of late is real or not.

Surviving the suspension was always going to be about being able to tread water. The early season struggles removed any margin for error so they'll have to do more than that. But it's doable because Dak and the line seem to have gotten their shit together and this portion of the schedule no longer looks as daunting as it did before the season started. They might as well kiss the division goodbye but the wild card is definitely there for the taking if they can avoid another nosedive.
 
BigSoxFan

BigSoxFan

Member
SoSH Member
May 31, 2007
47,216
The games against the Falcons and Seahawks are going to be big. Cowboys already lost to the Rams so if they lose to the Seahawks and Falcons, they won’t have tiebreakers against most key potential WC competitors. Carolina looks primed to win 10 games.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
Sure. But even stipulating that they split the Philly games and the Atlanta/Seattle games, that still gives them 11 wins. That's their ceiling and should comfortably get them into the wild card. I think it's likely they trip up and lose one more game (a shootout in Oakland maybe?), giving them 10 wins. That should be enough to snag the last wild card, provided that third loss isn't against Seattle.
 
bakahump

bakahump

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jan 8, 2001
7,555
Maine
He is Crazy and I hate his team. But I have to give JJ credit. He is doing exactly what I hoped Kraft would have done. Now I guess we will see which method of Play Nice/ Go all Al Davis works best long term.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
Man, I don't know. The calculus changes completely now without Lee and Tyron. They're not winning that game if either one of them misses it. And if either misses extended time (a near certainty with Lee), the possibility of a 10-win season devolves into a struggle to finish .500.
 
TFisNEXT

TFisNEXT

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
12,537
Bosoxen said:
Man, I don't know. The calculus changes completely now without Lee and Tyron. They're not winning that game if either one of them misses it. And if either misses extended time (a near certainty with Lee), the possibility of a 10-win season devolves into a struggle to finish .500.
Click to expand...
Yeah you can't take out two all-pro caliber players (3 if you count Zeke for the next 5 games) and still hope to win 10-11 games. They will need them back ASAP...especially Tyron considering the performance of Green yesterday. He looked completely lost.
 
NYCSox

NYCSox

chris hansen of goats
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 19, 2004
10,476
Some fancy town in CT
I know Lee is really good but it seems like his absence has an outsized negative impact on the defensive performance of the team. Why do they drop off so much without him in the lineup?
 
Greg29fan

Greg29fan

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
20,502
NC
Can we talk about the absolute incompetents we have coaching this team? It was clear from the first drive of the game that Green was not going to be able to do his job by himself - at that point it becomes imperative to help him every passing play - a TE on that side helping him, Rod Smith as an H-back on that side, anything. But instead Linehan puts him on an island THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME and the franchise QB gets killed over and over again.

Pair this with the Green Bay loss, which I pin entirely on him, and the current offensive coordinator cannot be allowed to continue to coach.
 
Bosoxen

Bosoxen

Bounced back
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 29, 2005
10,186
It's not just that. Jaylon Smith has no idea what he's doing and is basically playing on one leg. When you go from a guy like Lee - who can sniff out plays before they even happen - to a guy like Smith - who basically has to guess, often wrongly, and is seen trailing every play - you're going to have a massive dropoff. You'd have a dropoff from Lee to, say, Bruce Carter but it wouldn't be this bad.
Greg29fan said:
Can we talk about the absolute incompetents we have coaching this team? It was clear from the first drive of the game that Green was not going to be able to do his job by himself - at that point it becomes imperative to help him every passing play - a TE on that side helping him, Rod Smith as an H-back on that side, anything. But instead Linehan puts him on an island THE ENTIRE FUCKING GAME and the franchise QB gets killed over and over again.

Pair this with the Green Bay loss, which I pin entirely on him, and the current offensive coordinator cannot be allowed to continue to coach.
Click to expand...
Also, this is absolutely right. Leaving Green on an island all day was fucking criminal. Not only did they likely obliterate the poor guy's confidence to the point they're lucky if he's ever a viable player again but they almost got the QB killed in the process. You could hear the pain in Aikman's voice when he brought this up again and again and again.
 
Kenny F'ing Powers

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,476
How the fuck does Garrett still have a job? He doesn't call offensive or defensive plays, so how the hell isn't he the first person to hop on the mic to tell the offense to stop leaving Green on an island? If he's not calling plays or guiding adjustments, what the fuck does he do?
 
Stitch01

Stitch01

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
18,155
Boston
Pretty much word for word what Mike Lombardi said on his podcast this morning while also adding that Garrett has no idea how to adjust if he's missing a key player or two. His conclusion is Jerry Jones must like the way he claps on the sideline.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom