USMNT: To Rüssia With Love

Titans Bastard

has sunil gulati in his sights
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Dec 15, 2002
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Earnie Stewart should be Director of Football. He wants the job and he's beyond qualified.

Short term though, there's the election in February for USSF chief, so I think the best move would be to have an interim coach until the new chief is elected. The chief should start with a blank slate, and hopefully hire Stewart to manage the program.
I'd be down with that. One of the following needs to happen:

A) The next USSF president needs to be someone with actual soccer knowledge, not just an ex-superfan like Sunil

or

B) If the next president is a business type, 100% of the soccer decision-making needs to be delegated to someone like Stewart.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
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Dec 16, 2010
53,850
Any chance this means Cameron Carter-Vickers decides to play for England? I know he's not part of this cycle anyway, but still.
 

Cellar-Door

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Aug 1, 2006
34,464
Sheer entertainment value would be Wynalda winning president bringing in old teammate Stewart as technical/youth development director and hiring Bielsa for manager.
We'd play fun soccer have better development and 60/40 odds that the Federation President and USMNT manager would have a fistfight at a training session
 

McBride11

Member
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Jul 15, 2005
22,112
Durham, NC
We don't know. It says so, right in the post you're quoting and questioning.

Both decisions - not playing Cameron, and leaving FJ off the roster - are bad without additional context. We might never find out what that other context was. But there's definitely scenarios in which the coach and the player(s) aren't to blame.
You brought up potential club issues and I was simply trying to clarify if you had heard something.

As for the manager- it would be great to bring and internationally known name that isn’t beholden to MLS and USSF. Is the US that attractive a job right now? The prestige isnt as great as some of the other countries of the world, their current talent seems old / not that good, and the manager would have to wait at least 5 years before any WC action.

I am worried the US is gonna promote the MLS manager du jour.
 

SocrManiac

Tommy Seebach’s mustache
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Apr 15, 2006
8,634
Somers, CT
Until we see evidence that folks in charge truly understand the rotten core, it's best to live life as a Sunderland-style fan. Understand that the US will show flashes but is mediocre at best and won't ever really compete for big prizes.

Firing the head coach without losing Gulati isn't going to change root causes. Unless they're both gone, there's really no reason to expect anything to change.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
21,769
Pittsburgh, PA
Out of curiosity and away from my rage towards the usmnt for a moment

Can't FIFA do something about Panama's first goal? There is no question that it did not come close to going in, why can't it be take away it something? I don't understand how it was even awarded as a goal.
We've had Anger. Now Bargaining. Depression may not kick in till next May or June though.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Jul 2, 2006
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This right here. Carlo or LVG are great ideas. One of the big EPL managers is going to finish 6th this year and could be searching for a job...

What the program needs is credibility and someone from outside the local corruption to destroy everything and rebuild it. We also need someone who can perform the miracle of selling the CCVs and other players with European / Latin American options besides the US to play for us, without a World Cup to offer, Julian Green style. Random MLS guy isn't winning that sales pitch.

Perhaps the big European guy would only have a goal of winning the important (Confed qualifying) Gold Cup and could then transfer to MLS guy X, but in the short term, after Gulati, Arena, Ramos and everyone who has their personal cell phone number is fired, a highly credible and expensive outsider who has nothing but contempt for MLS and their quest for profits and security and isn't afraid to burn this motherfucker down is what is needed.
I agree with all of this but, sadly, I think our options will be limited. Being a national team manager isn't that attractive in general and the five year time commitment is really long and likely to a big turnoff for many candidates. Ancelotti is only 58 and still at the top of the game: There is no way he is committing his next five years to us. The same is almost certainly true of any younger "name brand" managers like Tuchel, Emery, etc. Spending five years coaching the USMNT in your 40s or early 50s is career suicide for those guys.

LVG seems like the most realistic "big name" to me: He is in semi-retirement anyway and being the USMNT manager isn't really a full time job. Wenger might be another possibility if he leaves Arsenal after this year. Another interesting name I've heard bandied around is David Wagner, who is very highly regarded. But I'm not sure he would want the job, for the same reasons discussed above (Edit: Just saw II had the same thought a minute earlier!.

In general, I think it would be a good idea not to rush this decision. The pool of available managers may change for the better next summer and its not like the USMNT will be doing anything important in the meantime.
 

Statman

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Jul 23, 2005
1,057
Los Angeles, CA
I will stop watching USMNT matches if another American MLS manager is hired.

It's time to blow things up and hiring the same ass kissers (i.e., Arena) isn't going to improve the program at all.
 

teddykgb

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Jul 16, 2005
11,019
Chelmsford, MA
There's no way Carlo Ancellotti is taking this job. Nobody with any sense or reputation is taking this job and as was pointed out above managers with real options don't take NT jobs. As useful as it would be to poach a big name and immediately re-inject some credibility into a program that just lost a ton of it last night, it's not a realistic outcome.

I think in the immediate term we're looking at a complete reset. Which is crazy unfortunate because we're going to waste almost all of Pulisic's best years. But the USMNT lacks talent and I don't think a massive change is on the horizon in the next 8 years. We need a technical director who continues to preach and drive toward additional technical players but we probably need a system manager who can drill a team of relatively mediocre parts into something more dangerous. Which is always hard to do at the NT level, but is probably the only realistic approach. It starts, to me, with the idea that outside of Pulisic we have no stars. Bradley, Altidore, Nagbe, Wood, Zardes etc etc are all more hype than substance at this point. We need a manager who can see through the bullshit and actually determine which XI is most functional and most likely to get results.

I was more enamored with the ideas put forth by Klinsmann than most and it pains me to see the US playing such awful football. I was against Arena when he was even being floated for the job toward the end of the JK era. But the problem for both managers was the same -- we have very few parts who are as good as their reputations and as a result we're not headed to the WC. One thing I would like to see in the next manager, however, is a tactical awareness. I think playing the Hex and Concacaf is a very tactical exercise. Some teams will open up and try to play, some will thug it out, some will sit deep. There's probably more variety in concacaf than there is for most european opposition at this point (completely made up point, possibly wrong). A manager who can try to understand the approach of the oppnent and change the setup to the needs of the match is an important skill we've likely lacked for a long time. I appreciated that Jurgen wanted us to take on more of a "FU, we're the USA, we're coming to your house and we're going to shove it down your throat" kind of mentality and agree with him that we need to get there. But the only way to get there is to relentlessly beat these opponents and for the last few years this has proven far too tricky. With struggles against Panama, Jamaica, Trinidad, Costa Rica, Honduras all relatively recently there really aren't any teams coming up against the USMNT expecting to get slaughtered anymore.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
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Jul 15, 2005
11,463
Meeting Place, Canada
Out of curiosity and away from my rage towards the usmnt for a moment

Can't FIFA do something about Panama's first goal? There is no question that it did not come close to going in, why can't it be take away it something? I don't understand how it was even awarded as a goal.
It's very unlikely, but one way it could be overturned if the ref fixed the match, and saw the pseudo goal as an opportunity to benefit Panama. A ref in CAF fixed a match, giving a phantom penalty to help South Africa defeat Senegal; the result was annulled and they replay next month. This is all very unlikely but it's international soccer so you can't rule it out completely. And even then Panama can win again.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Jan 10, 2004
24,483
The 718
There's no way Carlo Ancellotti is taking this job. Nobody with any sense or reputation is taking this job and as was pointed out above managers with real options don't take NT jobs. As useful as it would be to poach a big name and immediately re-inject some credibility into a program that just lost a ton of it last night, it's not a realistic outcome.

I think in the immediate term we're looking at a complete reset. Which is crazy unfortunate because we're going to waste almost all of Pulisic's best years. But the USMNT lacks talent and I don't think a massive change is on the horizon in the next 8 years. We need a technical director who continues to preach and drive toward additional technical players but we probably need a system manager who can drill a team of relatively mediocre parts into something more dangerous. Which is always hard to do at the NT level, but is probably the only realistic approach. It starts, to me, with the idea that outside of Pulisic we have no stars. Bradley, Altidore, Nagbe, Wood, Zardes etc etc are all more hype than substance at this point. We need a manager who can see through the bullshit and actually determine which XI is most functional and most likely to get results.

I was more enamored with the ideas put forth by Klinsmann than most and it pains me to see the US playing such awful football. I was against Arena when he was even being floated for the job toward the end of the JK era. But the problem for both managers was the same -- we have very few parts who are as good as their reputations and as a result we're not headed to the WC. One thing I would like to see in the next manager, however, is a tactical awareness. I think playing the Hex and Concacaf is a very tactical exercise. Some teams will open up and try to play, some will thug it out, some will sit deep. There's probably more variety in concacaf than there is for most european opposition at this point (completely made up point, possibly wrong). A manager who can try to understand the approach of the oppnent and change the setup to the needs of the match is an important skill we've likely lacked for a long time. I appreciated that Jurgen wanted us to take on more of a "FU, we're the USA, we're coming to your house and we're going to shove it down your throat" kind of mentality and agree with him that we need to get there. But the only way to get there is to relentlessly beat these opponents and for the last few years this has proven far too tricky. With struggles against Panama, Jamaica, Trinidad, Costa Rica, Honduras all relatively recently there really aren't any teams coming up against the USMNT expecting to get slaughtered anymore.
Others here with more sophisticated palettes may disagree but I think this is right. The victory against Panama was seductive because the Pusilic/Altidore/Wood combo looked so good, but Panama attacked aggressively and opened things up for USA in front of a home crowd. The game last night offered.... different conditions.

FWIW, the team also looked worse in the second game of each international period, on short rest. Granted both teams have to play on short rest but it speaks to both the lack of a vision and the lack of pieces to make it work - if you can't even put together a consistent XI with a tactical plan that everyone understands then the second game, where subs are needed, is going to be even worse.
 

coremiller

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Jul 14, 2005
5,846
So I agree that in general we need to develop better players, but that shouldn't be an issue in qualifying. We finished 5th but we are better than the 5th most talented team in the Hex. Our players are mediocre but our squad is still a lot better than Panama, Honduras, and T&T. Nobody in CONCACAF except maybe Mexico is rolling out a roster full of players starting in major European leagues. This was a coaching/tactics/execution/mentality failure, not a talent failure.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
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Jul 15, 2005
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Meeting Place, Canada
Others here with more sophisticated palettes may disagree but I think this is right. The victory against Panama was seductive because the Pusilic/Altidore/Wood combo looked so good, but Panama attacked aggressively and opened things up for USA in front of a home crowd. The game last night offered.... different conditions.

FWIW, the team also looked worse in the second game of each international period, on short rest. Granted both teams have to play on short rest but it speaks to both the lack of a vision and the lack of pieces to make it work - if you can't even put together a consistent XI with a tactical plan that everyone understands then the second game, where subs are needed, is going to be even worse.
This is the case for a few set of games, but not each set. In June, getting a point at Azteca was at least as impressive as beating T&T at home 2-0, and is a highlight of Arena's tenure. They went into those two games with two completely different gameplans, and very different lineups.

Which is why it befuddled me that in the last two games Arena went with the same lineup for both. There is less prep time in October to implement two radically different gameplans but playing fresher players may have made a difference. I think he thought that they could just show up and get a point. The hubris after the Panama win was strong. And frankly if you are playing for a point just play 4-5-1 and park the bus, which most players can understand quickly.
 
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Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
Probably one of the least powerful/influential USSoccer board members, but Donna Shalala calling for a "revolution" and new long term plan
Maybe just lip service but interesting
 

OnWisc

Microcosmic
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2006
6,844
Chicago, IL
Probably one of the least powerful/influential USSoccer board members, but Donna Shalala calling for a "revolution" and new long term plan
Maybe just lip service but interesting
She does have experience turning around moribund athletic programs, but I'm not sure Barry Alvarez is the answer here.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,306
There's no way Carlo Ancellotti is taking this job. Nobody with any sense or reputation is taking this job and as was pointed out above managers with real options don't take NT jobs. As useful as it would be to poach a big name and immediately re-inject some credibility into a program that just lost a ton of it last night, it's not a realistic outcome.

I think in the immediate term we're looking at a complete reset. Which is crazy unfortunate because we're going to waste almost all of Pulisic's best years. But the USMNT lacks talent and I don't think a massive change is on the horizon in the next 8 years. We need a technical director who continues to preach and drive toward additional technical players but we probably need a system manager who can drill a team of relatively mediocre parts into something more dangerous. Which is always hard to do at the NT level, but is probably the only realistic approach. It starts, to me, with the idea that outside of Pulisic we have no stars. Bradley, Altidore, Nagbe, Wood, Zardes etc etc are all more hype than substance at this point. We need a manager who can see through the bullshit and actually determine which XI is most functional and most likely to get results.

I was more enamored with the ideas put forth by Klinsmann than most and it pains me to see the US playing such awful football. I was against Arena when he was even being floated for the job toward the end of the JK era. But the problem for both managers was the same -- we have very few parts who are as good as their reputations and as a result we're not headed to the WC. One thing I would like to see in the next manager, however, is a tactical awareness. I think playing the Hex and Concacaf is a very tactical exercise. Some teams will open up and try to play, some will thug it out, some will sit deep. There's probably more variety in concacaf than there is for most european opposition at this point (completely made up point, possibly wrong). A manager who can try to understand the approach of the oppnent and change the setup to the needs of the match is an important skill we've likely lacked for a long time. I appreciated that Jurgen wanted us to take on more of a "FU, we're the USA, we're coming to your house and we're going to shove it down your throat" kind of mentality and agree with him that we need to get there. But the only way to get there is to relentlessly beat these opponents and for the last few years this has proven far too tricky. With struggles against Panama, Jamaica, Trinidad, Costa Rica, Honduras all relatively recently there really aren't any teams coming up against the USMNT expecting to get slaughtered anymore.
They haven't even had a manager who understands how to change the setup to suit the needs of his own players, never mind different opponents.
 

Mr Mulliner

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Jan 16, 2001
793
Okay, who WILL be the next coach and who SHOULD be?

The US is gonna throw money at someone, who will it be?
SAF

No chance ever, but that’s what I want. And I hate United, and hated him when he was there. But I would gladly knife someone if it would give us a chance at coaxing him here.
 

Morgan's Magic Snowplow

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Jul 2, 2006
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So I agree that in general we need to develop better players, but that shouldn't be an issue in qualifying. We finished 5th but we are better than the 5th most talented team in the Hex. Our players are mediocre but our squad is still a lot better than Panama, Honduras, and T&T. Nobody in CONCACAF except maybe Mexico is rolling out a roster full of players starting in major European leagues. This was a coaching/tactics/execution/mentality failure, not a talent failure.
This is an important point that shouldn't get lost. This wasn't a cup tie either, where the more talented team can easily lose by having a few breaks go against them. Over 10 matches, you shouldn't finish behind 2-3 less talented teams (Costa Rica is debatable IMO). If that happens, something is very wrong.

And its squarely on Arena. They were in a hole after losing the first two under Klinsmann but those were two of the three toughest matches in the hex. They had eight other matches, seven of them very very winnable, and they got 12 points.
 

teddykgb

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Jul 16, 2005
11,019
Chelmsford, MA
This is the case for a few set of games, but not each set. In June, getting a point at Azteca was at least as impressive as beating T&T at home 2-0, and is a highlight of Arena's tenure. They went into those two games with two completely different gameplans, and very different lineups.

Which is why it befuddled me that in the last two games Arena went with the same lineup for both. There is less prep time in October to implement two radically different gameplans but playing fresher players may have made a difference. I think he thought that they could just show up and get a point. The hubris after the Panama win was strong. And frankly if you are playing for a point just play 4-5-1 and park the bus, which most players can understand quickly.
Was getting a point at Azteca really a result of a change Arena made? I don't want to denigrate that outcome because it was a great result for the USMNT but my memory of that game is that Bradley scored a great goal and Cameron played out of his skin. mexico still had plenty of chances. The US did as well. I'm more trying to see if there was a theory at work for Arena's lineups that was different from JK and to me aside from maybe some deference paid to rest I don't think we really displayed any tactical flexibility. I could certainly be convinced that it was there and I missed it but I think our approach was largely the same in all of the matches. You say different gameplans, so can you explain a little of what you saw? To me, we were largely continuing to operate with a holding midfielder, wingers, and a striker or strike partnership. Lots of bypassing the midfield. Not negative, park the bus tactics but more of a general get it forward into space and hope for the best kind of approach.

In any case, to respond to some of the other posts, I'm not sure we can actually say the US is better by talent level than the other teams in the hex that finished above them. We should not need a tactician to defeat Trinidad but these other teams in Concacaf have gotten quite good. Again, we have to eliminate the reputations of the US players and look more to the performances and I don't see the separation there that you might expect. I think Costa Rica has more than a case to be more talented than we are at the moment. Mexico obviously as well. Panama and Honduras have good players who play hard and I don't think much separates them from our more familiar names. Either way, if you look at the MLS leaderboards in goals, assists, etc, you aren't seeing Americans leading the league there and you aren't seeing the USMNT players perform. Maybe one of the most basic criticisms I can have about this qualifying would be that the top assist players who were eligible were not being picked consistently (Klejstan, Nguyen, Feilhaber) in favor of players who have performed more for the NT but who haven't shown consistent form in the league. Maybe if I have some time I'll try to compare similar Panamanian and Honduras players on Squawka or something but I'd bet that the gap between our "stars" and theirs is far smaller than we'd like to admit if it exists at all.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
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Jan 10, 2004
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The 718
This is the case for a few set of games, but not each set. In June, getting a point at Azteca was at least as impressive as beating T&T at home 2-0, and is a highlight of Arena's tenure. They went into those two games with two completely different gameplans, and very different lineups.

Which is why it befuddled me that in the last two games Arena went with the same lineup for both. There is less prep time in October to implement two radically different gameplans but playing fresher players may have made a difference. I think he thought that they could just show up and get a point. The hubris after the Panama win was strong. And frankly if you are playing for a point just play 4-5-1 and park the bus, which most players can understand quickly.
True, I should have qualified, I meant as a trend. Of course I agree re: Mexico.
 

moly99

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Jun 28, 2007
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Seattle
Either way, if you look at the MLS leaderboards in goals, assists, etc, you aren't seeing Americans leading the league there and you aren't seeing the USMNT players perform.
Beyond that, the quality of the MLS player pool is growing faster than the US national player pool. I *think* that is exactly what the league's critics want: tougher competition domestically to drag the quality of our players upwards.

I have no problem with people criticizing MLS. It really is a mickey mouse league with constantly changing byzantine rules and less history and prestige than the Canadian Football League. Unfortunately it is also one of the better functioning parts of the sport in this country. Scrapping MLS to benefit NASL and pay to play youth soccer will make things worse rather than better.
 

Titans Bastard

has sunil gulati in his sights
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Maybe if I have some time I'll try to compare similar Panamanian and Honduras players on Squawka or something but I'd bet that the gap between our "stars" and theirs is far smaller than we'd like to admit if it exists at all.
Costa Rica's talent level is above that of Honduras and Panama, but even the Ticos rely on a number of solid but unspectacular MLS players. I guess that makes the Ticos similar to us (Bedoya, Zusi, et al), but both Honduras and Panama start guys who actually washed out of MLS.

It's clear that the US has suffered from poor coaching performances throughout the cycle and I've tried to document the failures of the cohort of prime-age players. But beyond pure talent and ability, it just seems like the current iteration of the US team lacks a certain mental toughness.

A guy like Frankie Hejduk wouldn't have stood for this shit. He wasn't exactly a technical wizard, but psychologically he had what it took to help get results in CONCACAF. Where is that mentality from the current group?

Top to bottom, the current team is just too soft. It used to be that psychological toughness and the ability to run all day was all the US had.

I'll give this to Klinsmann: he has definitely been proven right about this team needing to be more "nasty".

The US fell one point short of qualifying, so it seems like we could have survived merely two out of the three (bad coaching, weak pool, shitty mentality) but I guess we had to go for the trifecta.
 

coremiller

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Jul 14, 2005
5,846
Was getting a point at Azteca really a result of a change Arena made? I don't want to denigrate that outcome because it was a great result for the USMNT but my memory of that game is that Bradley scored a great goal and Cameron played out of his skin. mexico still had plenty of chances. The US did as well. I'm more trying to see if there was a theory at work for Arena's lineups that was different from JK and to me aside from maybe some deference paid to rest I don't think we really displayed any tactical flexibility. I could certainly be convinced that it was there and I missed it but I think our approach was largely the same in all of the matches. You say different gameplans, so can you explain a little of what you saw? To me, we were largely continuing to operate with a holding midfielder, wingers, and a striker or strike partnership. Lots of bypassing the midfield. Not negative, park the bus tactics but more of a general get it forward into space and hope for the best kind of approach.

In any case, to respond to some of the other posts, I'm not sure we can actually say the US is better by talent level than the other teams in the hex that finished above them. We should not need a tactician to defeat Trinidad but these other teams in Concacaf have gotten quite good. Again, we have to eliminate the reputations of the US players and look more to the performances and I don't see the separation there that you might expect. I think Costa Rica has more than a case to be more talented than we are at the moment. Mexico obviously as well. Panama and Honduras have good players who play hard and I don't think much separates them from our more familiar names. Either way, if you look at the MLS leaderboards in goals, assists, etc, you aren't seeing Americans leading the league there and you aren't seeing the USMNT players perform. Maybe one of the most basic criticisms I can have about this qualifying would be that the top assist players who were eligible were not being picked consistently (Klejstan, Nguyen, Feilhaber) in favor of players who have performed more for the NT but who haven't shown consistent form in the league. Maybe if I have some time I'll try to compare similar Panamanian and Honduras players on Squawka or something but I'd bet that the gap between our "stars" and theirs is far smaller than we'd like to admit if it exists at all.
Our team starts several players who get consistent minutes in the EPL and the Bundesliga. Pulisic, Cameron, Johnson, Brooks, Yedlin, and Wood are all far more accomplished players at club level than anyone on Panama or Honduras, and maybe even Costa Rica. Plus Bradley, Dempsey, and Altidore have top-flight European experience. Meanwhile, 18 of the 28 players Honduras called up for the last two games play in the Honduran league.
 

67YAZ

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Dec 1, 2000
8,731
Gulati need to go. Who know if he will (Donna Shalala does have a helluva roladex, so don’t discount her possible influence), but that’s the big domino. Gulati has done good work mostly, but it’s time for new leadership and a new vision to help bring US soccer to a new level.

I think the pipeline is a focal issue, on both the men’s and women’s side. I’d love to see trial investment in the MLS academies located in major cities (LA, Chicago, NYC, Dallas to start) that allows them to build out organized youth leagues with credentialing for all the coaches. And I think this should be primarily targeted at Latino and recent immigrant communities - groups with strong football traditions and often little means to pay-to-play. Start there for 5 years, evaluate, and see if we have a bumper crop of 12-15 year olds ready for the academies of Europe. If so, reinvest and grow.

I’m agnostic about Arena resigning or having an interim over the next year. The key is letting the next president make a hire that is a clear philosophical fit and who will develop the pool to best ensure qualification for 2022. Locking in a coach for the next cycle before the election is a bad move, even if Gulati is re-elected.
 

Infield Infidel

teaching korea american
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Jul 15, 2005
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Was getting a point at Azteca really a result of a change Arena made? I don't want to denigrate that outcome because it was a great result for the USMNT but my memory of that game is that Bradley scored a great goal and Cameron played out of his skin. mexico still had plenty of chances. The US did as well. I'm more trying to see if there was a theory at work for Arena's lineups that was different from JK and to me aside from maybe some deference paid to rest I don't think we really displayed any tactical flexibility. I could certainly be convinced that it was there and I missed it but I think our approach was largely the same in all of the matches. You say different gameplans, so can you explain a little of what you saw? To me, we were largely continuing to operate with a holding midfielder, wingers, and a striker or strike partnership. Lots of bypassing the midfield. Not negative, park the bus tactics but more of a general get it forward into space and hope for the best kind of approach.

In any case, to respond to some of the other posts, I'm not sure we can actually say the US is better by talent level than the other teams in the hex that finished above them. We should not need a tactician to defeat Trinidad but these other teams in Concacaf have gotten quite good. Again, we have to eliminate the reputations of the US players and look more to the performances and I don't see the separation there that you might expect. I think Costa Rica has more than a case to be more talented than we are at the moment. Mexico obviously as well. Panama and Honduras have good players who play hard and I don't think much separates them from our more familiar names. Either way, if you look at the MLS leaderboards in goals, assists, etc, you aren't seeing Americans leading the league there and you aren't seeing the USMNT players perform. Maybe one of the most basic criticisms I can have about this qualifying would be that the top assist players who were eligible were not being picked consistently (Klejstan, Nguyen, Feilhaber) in favor of players who have performed more for the NT but who haven't shown consistent form in the league. Maybe if I have some time I'll try to compare similar Panamanian and Honduras players on Squawka or something but I'd bet that the gap between our "stars" and theirs is far smaller than we'd like to admit if it exists at all.
In the T&T match, US played a flexible 5-3-2/2-6-2 (I think they flipped Bradley and Villafana in the graphic), everyone except Cameron and Brooks had freedom to attack. I didn't watch that whole match so it might have changed late. For the Mexico match, US played in a 3-4-3, with 6 7 lineup changes, more solid in shape, the wingers, Yedlin/Beasley, played more conservative, and midfielders guarded in front of the 3 defenders, especially the few times Yedlin was caught upfield and Cameron had to cover outside. On the left Beasley stayed behind and Pulisic had freedom. Wood played the full horizontal field to hold up when he got the ball to relieve pressure because usually US had 8 or 9 behind the ball. Mexico had 67% possession; US basically said we're here try to break us down and it drove Mexico mad. US had apparently drilled both set-ups during the summer camp. But that's with three weeks to prep. There aren't two teams more different in the Hex than Mexico and T&T, they definitely needed radically different approaches.

I agree about Costa Rica, they really should be recognized as a top tier CONCACAF side. They've now qualified for 4 of the 5 World Cups, and missed the 5th because they lost to Uruguay 2-1 in a playoff (Uruguay went on to finish 4th in WC 2010 and won 2011 Copa America). Costa Rica made the quarters in WC 2014, which is further than Mexico can say for the last 30 years.

Edit: 7 lineup changes for the Mexico match, forgot they switch GK from Howard to Guzan
 
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SoxFanInCali

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California. Duh.
I've ranted about pay-to-play before, but I'm still not sure how to replace it with something that works.

England has over 5,000 club teams across 11 levels of the pyramid and below in a land mass about 1/3rd the size of California. Pretty much any kid that shows some talent is going to get a chance to show it. The MLS academies are a start, but the scale isn't there to find the talent, and there isn't enough of a financial incentive for smaller clubs to set one up. Plus, let's face it, there's something about the idea of signing 9 year-olds to schoolboy contracts that seems creepy. It's always been done in England, but would they start a system like that today without the history?
 
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teddykgb

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Our team starts several players who get consistent minutes in the EPL and the Bundesliga. Pulisic, Cameron, Johnson, Brooks, Yedlin, and Wood are all far more accomplished players at club level than anyone on Panama or Honduras, and maybe even Costa Rica. Plus Bradley, Dempsey, and Altidore have top-flight European experience. Meanwhile, 18 of the 28 players Honduras called up for the last two games play in the Honduran league.
Our team last night didn't have Cameron, Johnson or Brooks. Yedlin is hardly a regular and certainly isn't accomplished at any level. He's a prospect and I like him a lot but there's work to be done. I guess I just take umbrage with the word "accomplished". Very few of these players have accomplished much of anything. Wood has done well in Europe and deserves to be given a real go. That doesn't mean he's accomplished much, he scored 5 goals last year?

You make that comment about the Honduran league like it negates the point. No, nobody grows up dreaming to play in the Honduran league. Nobody grew up dreaming of playing in MLS either. It's perfectly fine for players to have gotten a start there or even still be there. This is a massive sport and talent is spread throughout the world. When the players step on the pitch with the US, increasingly, they are not holding on for draws and are instead capable of dictating or even carrying play to the US. What league they play in does not matter, our players are not outclassing them.


edit: @Infield Infidel thank you for the links. I think the T&T is still basically a 4-4-2 but it's quibbling and you are absolutely right and I was absolutely wrong.
 
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Titans Bastard

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This thread is an interesting read, though it does require you to relive a lot of the awfulness of last night.


(There are lots of embedded videos, so it's worth checking out later if you are on mobile).
 

BostonJack42

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Big Sam Allardyce probably.
Big Sam is who they should have gotten - so much of this past year has reminded me of a relegation fight. Started out disappointing and then the need to fire the flashy coach (J.K.) followed by installing of Big Sam. He would have instantly focused on organization and defense.
 

coremiller

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Our team last night didn't have Cameron, Johnson or Brooks. Yedlin is hardly a regular and certainly isn't accomplished at any level. He's a prospect and I like him a lot but there's work to be done. I guess I just take umbrage with the word "accomplished". Very few of these players have accomplished much of anything. Wood has done well in Europe and deserves to be given a real go. That doesn't mean he's accomplished much, he scored 5 goals last year?

You make that comment about the Honduran league like it negates the point. No, nobody grows up dreaming to play in the Honduran league. Nobody grew up dreaming of playing in MLS either. It's perfectly fine for players to have gotten a start there or even still be there. This is a massive sport and talent is spread throughout the world. When the players step on the pitch with the US, increasingly, they are not holding on for draws and are instead capable of dictating or even carrying play to the US. What league they play in does not matter, our players are not outclassing them.


edit: @Infield Infidel thank you for the links. I think the T&T is still basically a 4-4-2 but it's quibbling and you are absolutely right and I was absolutely wrong.
My point is that talent flows upward, and club performances are much more indicative of talent level than national team performances. The global soccer talent market is relatively efficient. If our players are getting legitimate minutes and starting games in the world's top leagues, that says a lot about their ability. If Honduras' players were good, they wouldn't be playing in Honduras. That their team can take the game to our more talented players suggests our players are either not motivated, not properly coached/tactically prepared, or both.
 

Infield Infidel

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Costa Rica's talent level is above that of Honduras and Panama, but even the Ticos rely on a number of solid but unspectacular MLS players. I guess that makes the Ticos similar to us (Bedoya, Zusi, et al), but both Honduras and Panama start guys who actually washed out of MLS.

It's clear that the US has suffered from poor coaching performances throughout the cycle and I've tried to document the failures of the cohort of prime-age players. But beyond pure talent and ability, it just seems like the current iteration of the US team lacks a certain mental toughness.

A guy like Frankie Hejduk wouldn't have stood for this shit. He wasn't exactly a technical wizard, but psychologically he had what it took to help get results in CONCACAF. Where is that mentality from the current group?

Top to bottom, the current team is just too soft. It used to be that psychological toughness and the ability to run all day was all the US had.

I'll give this to Klinsmann: he has definitely been proven right about this team needing to be more "nasty".

The US fell one point short of qualifying, so it seems like we could have survived merely two out of the three (bad coaching, weak pool, shitty mentality) but I guess we had to go for the trifecta.
I think when JK talked about nastiness, it was more in the line of dark arts like shirtpulling, elbowing, sliding under guys who jump, instigating contact so the opponent gets carded, that kind of stuff. It's one reason why he loved Kyle Beckerman and Jermaine Jones. We've never really had much of that besides those two guys. We just always played harder than our opponents.

One thing I didn't think about playing some of the older guys and hiring Arena is that, for years, these players had their way with teams like Trinidad or Honduras. Just show up, play hard, and get a result. In the last five years those teams are better that they were previously, and those US players are older and worse than they were, but I don't think the players or the program recognized those changes, mentally speaking. I don't think Howard ever dreamed he'd give up a goal like that to Trinidad. Mexico, Costa Rica, sure, but not Trinidad. I mean we lost to Guatemala before we even got to the Hex, and barely beat Haiti and lost to Jamaica at the 2015 Gold Cup. Like Twellman said these problems go further back than just yesterday or just the Hex. Many of these games just seemed so nonchalant. Pulisic, Arriola, Yedlin, Wood, those young guys just flat played harder than most of the older guys in a lot of these games.
 
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soxfan121

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You brought up potential club issues and I was simply trying to clarify if you had heard something.
Yep, I brought it up and then IMMEDIATELY, in the same sentence, said "we don't know."

How you went from there to asking "what do you know?" ... is frustrating.

There's no way Carlo Ancellotti is taking this job.
CARLO'S EYEBROW. Not the man named Carlo Ancelotti, who is obviously one of the 10 best managers in the world, has managed Real Madrid and FC Bayern in his last two jobs, and is surely the most sought after, "available", respected manager without a current job.

The best we can hope for is for his EYEBROW to be surgically removed, and then we could reasonably hope to hire that eyebrow. And again, that eyebrow knows more about soccer than Arena, Klinsmann, and Gulati combined.

THAT'S THE JOKE. (I am not handling this well, at all.)
 

DJnVa

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This thread is an interesting read, though it does require you to relive a lot of the awfulness of last night.


(There are lots of embedded videos, so it's worth checking out later if you are on mobile).
Yikes on that thread.
 

soxfan121

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So, Mike Felger (local radio guy, 98.5) - who is a HUGE (closeted) USMNT fan - just said something that has chilled me to the bone:

"Soccer is dead in the US."

For years, he's enthusiastically talked about the potential for the game to grow, and the the US to become a real factor in international play. But his point - one I'm having a hard time arguing with - is that missing the WC derails any momentum the game had at converting casual, once-every-four-years fans into diehards. Combined with the new NBCSN scheme to maximize profits on the EPL broadcasts - further limiting access to the good teams/games - this failure is going to decimate (or worse) the burgeoning fanbase, and kill any hope that "we're close" to being really competitive.

Diehards will still care (too much!) but every casual fan I've encountered today has A.) mocked me for liking soccer, and B.) shit on the game & team in such a derisive, accurate manner it is impossible to argue. They lose to Trindad & Tobago! I've been there. I like it there. There is no acceptable reason for the USA to lose to T&T. None. Doing so has mortally wounded the program, the potential for growth, and the opportunity for Christian Pulisic to do something amazing that captures/converts new fans at the WC.

So fucking depressing.
 

Titans Bastard

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Soccer's not dead.

But missing a fan-generating WC, especially one with a rising-star narrative with Pulisic, is an enormous squandered opportunity and yes, really fucking depressing. There is no doubt that this will negatively affect the growth trajectory of US soccer fandom, at least in the short term.

This is a really low point and it will take time to change that. We have nothing but friendlies for the next 20 months.

This narrative can be turned around, though....if the USSF can get its house in order. Let's get good personnel in place. Let's prioritize the 2020 Olympics because we have a good group of players in that age bracket (1997-2000). The Olympics ain't the WC, but Americans love the Olympics and a good US performance will make waves here. Everybody loves a comeback story. It's also a way to battle-test a young group of players who we will be heavily relying on come WCQ in 2020 and 2021.

Pulisic's club exploits will single-handedly generate headlines and hope. And he's not the only American teen starting in the Bundesliga - Weston McKennie is breaking through at Schalke and will be in a US shirt sooner rather than later. McKennie is the midfield engine we have been waiting for. There are others on the horizon, too.
 

coremiller

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Soccer's not dead.

But missing a fan-generating WC, especially one with a rising-star narrative with Pulisic, is an enormous squandered opportunity and yes, really fucking depressing. There is no doubt that this will negatively affect the growth trajectory of US soccer fandom, at least in the short term.

This is a really low point and it will take time to change that. We have nothing but friendlies for the next 20 months.

This narrative can be turned around, though....if the USSF can get its house in order. Let's get good personnel in place. Let's prioritize the 2020 Olympics because we have a good group of players in that age bracket (1997-2000). The Olympics ain't the WC, but Americans love the Olympics and a good US performance will make waves here. Everybody loves a comeback story. It's also a way to battle-test a young group of players who we will be heavily relying on come WCQ in 2020 and 2021.

Pulisic's club exploits will single-handedly generate headlines and hope. And he's not the only American teen starting in the Bundesliga - Weston McKennie is breaking through at Schalke and will be in a US shirt sooner rather than later. McKennie is the midfield engine we have been waiting for. There are others on the horizon, too.
Is it possible that this could be a good thing in the long run? The USSF has needed a housecleaning and restructuring for a while now but it was hard to see that happening without this kind of catastrophe. If the result of not qualifying is that it serves as the impetus to turn over the federation leadership that would not have happened otherwise, maybe it's for the best?
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Not quite dead, and we all know Felger will do his thing, but yeah probably in a coma for a while. Last night I mentioned the impact of California kids watching Gretzky play for the Kings. Pulisic is the best talent we've ever had and he's just a decade older than the kids we'd want to be watching this Cup and dying to become the next Pulisic.

Need to come back strong in any upcoming competitions as TB says, though I can't help but feel like all roads lead to USA 2026. How are we getting to that tournament with a team that showed up to do two things and just ran out of bubblegum? I'm expecting quite a bit of chaos over the next few years, so my expectations are low for the near-term including Qatar (for example, I doubt we've seen the last of Michael Bradley despite him being possibly our worst player of the entire cycle), but I don't think it's insane to ask for a team in 8 years that will A) play with purpose and B) fight for every inch.
 

cromulence

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Yikes on that thread.
Honestly, all of that wasn't painful to me. In a weird way, it felt reassuring - we did not deserve to win (or draw). And it also confirms my mid-game opinion last night that Nagbe was absolutely terrible out there.
 

cromulence

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By the way, was anyone else watching Univision in the second half, where they'd sometimes show all three games at once? I ditched the stream and stuck with that for the last fifteen minutes or so. I mostly watched Hon/Mex and USA/T&T, but at one point my eye moved to Pan/CRC - about two seconds before the goal. It felt like an actual nightmare.
 

Titans Bastard

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Is it possible that this could be a good thing in the long run? The USSF has needed a housecleaning and restructuring for a while now but it was hard to see that happening without this kind of catastrophe. If the result of not qualifying is that it serves as the impetus to turn over the federation leadership that would not have happened otherwise, maybe it's for the best?
I think it goes too far to say it's a good thing, but certainly there are silver linings in this epic failure IF the right choices are made and right actions taken in the aftermath.

In addition to @soxfan121's comments about the effect this will have on the growth of soccer in the US, there are other ramifications. Missing a WC puts the MLS/USSF TV rights package in a weaker position next time it is up for negotiation. That's fewer dollars that can be devoted to player development. The same applies to all deals made with various sponsors, all of whom have to be livid right now.

We will also see what effect this has on dual national recruitment. For the most part, there isn't an actual tug-of-war with German-Americans. If they are good enough for Germany, they'll play for Germany. Most aren't and will play for the US if good enough. The only player who gave up on Germany before he "needed" to was Brooks who was a Rongen recruit who started playing for US teams early.

I'm more concerned about the Mexican-American tug of war. None of the Mexican-American players subject to a recruitment battle have ever amounted to anything significant for either team. There are some touted prospects at the moment...so we'll see.


And lastly, it's only a silver lining if and when the USSF actually gets cleaned up and restructured. This should be a given, but it's not.
 

67YAZ

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I've ranted about pay-to-play before, but I'm still not sure how to replace it with something that works.

England has over 5,000 club teams across 11 levels of the pyramid and below in a land mass about 1/3rd the size of California. Pretty much any kid that shows some talent is going to get a chance to show it. The MLS academies are a start, but the scale isn't there to find the talent, and there isn't enough of a financial incentive for smaller clubs to set one up. Plus, let's face it, there's something about the idea of signing 9 year-olds to schoolboy contracts that seems creepy. It's always been done in England, but would they start a system like that today without the history?
There are a number of ideas that we can borrow from the most successful European set ups and experiment with here in the US. In Germany, professional teams organize and run local youth leagues, costs are reimbursed by the FA. Youth can't sign with academies until age 12, but the youth leagues provide both training and scouting opportunities for clubs. In Iceland, there has been a major push to ensure every youth team is coached by someone with a UEFA license, and the FA has constructed numerous turf fields under plastic domes in close proximity to schools. In Belgium, teams across developmental levels play in a 4-3-3 create a shared tactical foundation for players to grow up in.

I half sketched the idea above, but I think USSF can do this on a pilot basis with the MLS clubs in LA, NYC, Chicago, Dallas, and Seattle (to quickly pick 5 major cities). Pay the MLS Academies in each city to organize youth leagues with trained, credentialed coaches. Have them all play in a set formation - 4-3-3 is nicely flexible. And have them focus on a few community areas in their metro regions, prioritizing Latino and recent immigrant communities where interest in soccer is high but ability to pay is low. And do it for boys and girls.

This will definitely cost USSF some dough to roll out in 5 cities for 5 years as a pilot, but this is the kind of next step that's necessary to strengthen the pipeline of talent. We need a bold experiment on this front.