Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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TheoShmeo

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PedroKsBambino said:
I don't think that's a reasonable take on the moves, actually. I have no problem with people disliking the Fultz trade, but it's pretty tough to say the rest of the moves are all dependent on that being right.

First, he made pretty clear he had Tatum over Fultz. That's a bet on Tatum, not against Fultz. I get your draft board was different, but that doesn't change what he did and why.

Second, he traded for a number one overall pick, one with a lot less risk than Fultz. You might like him less (and you might be right, especially since he's cost-controlled for many fewer years) but your central thesis about apex talents and the moves is disproven by, you know, the moves.

Third, in addition to getting Tatum he has another bite at the apple of a high pick left. So that's a shot to 'win' the transaction too.

There's plenty of ways for Fultz to be an excellent player and this summer to still work out for Celts.
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I know the Fultz angle is a side point but I think the following relates to how we view almost every deal, including the Irving trade.

That Danny said or intimated that he had Tatum over Fultz might be true. His actions are consistent with that. But it's also possible that he viewed them as equals, or as Fultz having slightly more upside but not being as valuable as Tatum plus extra consideration.

Whatever these guys -- Ainge, Gilbert or the intern who is currently acting as Cleveland's GM -- say isn't necessarily what they believe. It's what they think is the best message for the public, the players, agents and future free agents. It may also might have the benefit of being true from time to time. But taking any of these comments as wholly candid is unwise in my view.

As applied to this deal, Gilbert has to know that he's taking a PR beating, and whatever he's saying now is his best effort to stem that and accomplish whatever other objectives he deems important.
 
Auger34

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kazuneko said:
None of the moves that Ainge has made in the past were even close to as risky (or controversial) as the two big moves he pulled the trigger on this offseason. He potentially is giving away two number overall picks in one offseason, and the 17' pick was seen as the type of "consensus number 1" that almost never gets traded. I'm not saying that going conventional is always the best move, but let's not pretend this is "standard Ainge". This is Ainge's two boldest moves ever, back to back. As great has he's been throughout his career he will be remembered - for better or worse- for how these moves play out.
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This is laughably wrong.
Trading for Ray Allen and making a bet that would entice KG to join the team was miles more bold and risky than either of these moves.
Hindsight is 20/20 but trading KG and The Truth to Brooklyn was more bold and risky than both of these moves.

I don't understand the line of thinking that Ainge will be remembered solely for these moves if they don't work out. That's just not true. The man constructed the "Big 3" and put a championship banner up. Unless Markelle Fultz becomes a Hall of Famer AND both Tatum+Kyrie fail spectacularly, this series of moves will not be remembered before the banner
 
HomeRunBaker

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TheoShmeo said:
I know the Fultz angle is a side point but I think the following relates to how we view almost every deal, including the Irving trade.

That Danny said or intimated that he had Tatum over Fultz might be true. His actions are consistent with that. But it's also possible that he viewed them as equals, or as Fultz having slightly more upside but not being as valuable as Tatum plus extra consideration.
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I believe that he had a top group at the top (as I did myself) and knew that the additional lottery pick was of tremendous value to be left with either Tatum or Jackson. The thing people have to remember is that Ainge wasn't cashing in all his chips this summer......he was, at the time of the draft, still in asset accumulation mode.

I've mentioned this before but every piece moved to Cleveland had already been replaced without having to give up any assets but by simply replacing Fultz with Tatum/Jackson. Baynes was signed to play any of Zizic's minutes, Hayward was signed to play Crowders, and the Lakers/Kings pick essentially replaces the Nets pick as a "lottery ticket" in a future draft. There is still one more big prize out there for Ainge to target......Davis is the obvious one but others could also come on the market and he'll be prepared when they do. He always is just as he swapped Raef and assets for Ratliff's expiring contract to set up the following years KG trade. Chess vs. Checkers.
 
DJnVa

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I want to watch presser by CSNNE blocks me for blackout reasons because I'm not in area.
 
DJnVa

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Green Monster said:
Anyone have a summary of what he is saying
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Nothing earth-shattering (flat earth-shattering!). Excited to be here, etc. It's all about the team, no one guy can do it--he will be excited for the 14th guy on roster to do something as he is for the top guys, etc.
 
DJnVa

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Kyrie said GH "is a bad dude." Said he spent 20 minutes watching highlights of him the other day.
 
Gash Prex

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They both seem very intelligent, totally into basketball, and building a championship - I'm all in
 
Sam Ray Not

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DrewDawg said:
he will be excited for the 14th guy on roster to do something as he is for the top guys, etc.
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Hmmmm, sounds suspiciously like a direct response to LeBron's infamous "we're top heavy AF" whining from last season (and suspiciously like something his more team-oriented BFFs like Draymond, Harrison Barnes, et al. would have talked to him about in private).
 
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allstonite

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Kyrie is great. Incredibly thoughtful and pretty funny. He remembered MassLive making a good highlight tape from a tournament in 2010. Best part though was a question on being coached by Stevens:

Kyrie: So far I've only been on teams playing against Coach Stevens...
Brad: I coached you on a team that gave up 197 points once
 
DJnVa

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Question to GH about Stevens and he said something like he could never have imagined after those 5:45 am workouts years ago with him that they'd be here today. Stevens jumps in and said "He couldn't even grow a beard last time I saw him" and the reporter asked Stevens if he could.
 
Sam Ray Not

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nighthob said:
Tatum's going to get a lot closer to his ceiling (which I see as being a longer Paul Pierce)
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Tatum's smooth footwork, post moves and shot also kinda remind me of Kawhi Leonard (though he lacks Kawhi's 7-3 wingspan and defensive upside).

Maybe halfway between Harry Barnes and Kawhi as a realistic goal?

Edit: which I guess is roughly the same as "longer Paul Pierce."
 
Buster Olney the Lonely

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Just watched the entire presser and now I'm really fired up. Can't wait to watch this new team grow and mesh. Can't wait to see Jaylen and Jayson get on the floor with the vets.

Question: do you think the Celtics waited to introduce Hayward with the knowledge that they'd have another announcement?
 
Light-Tower-Power

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maufman said:
I don't think it's a racial thing, if that's what you're driving at. People would be making the same observation about Kyrie if the other player on the dais was Al Horford.
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Yeah, that's a massive stretch. Not all athletes are well-spoken (see Gronkowski, Robert) so it was nice to see someone who was intelligent and articulate take on the press conference like a true professional. Not that Hayward wasn't but Kyrie talked for 80% of the time, and I posted that comment before Hayward had even said a word.
 
H78

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The way Kyrie looks and speaks reminds me a lot of Randy Moss.
 
kazuneko

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tbb345 said:
This is laughably wrong.
Trading for Ray Allen and making a bet that would entice KG to join the team was miles more bold and risky than either of these moves.
Hindsight is 20/20 but trading KG and The Truth to Brooklyn was more bold and risky than both of these moves.

I don't understand the line of thinking that Ainge will be remembered solely for these moves if they don't work out. That's just not true. The man constructed the "Big 3" and put a championship banner up. Unless Markelle Fultz becomes a Hall of Famer AND both Tatum+Kyrie fail spectacularly, this series of moves will not be remembered before the banner
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First off, I was not trying to say he will be judged solely on these trades. Even if these moves fail he will always get credit for the Garnett teams and the fast turnaround in the last few years. My point was these trades are big enough and controversial enough that they will have a significant impact on his eventual legacy. You may not want to see it, but Ainge bucked conventional wisdom with these trades to a degree that he never has before (at least not on moves of this significance). And I know you disagree. But the idea that trading the #5 pick in a draft that was seen as two-star deep for a hall of fame guard (i.e. the Ray Allen trade), or that blowing up a team that was clearly too old to contend was "miles more bold and risky" is just not true. If people want to love these trades that is their right, but you have to respect the fact that Ainge bucked conventional wisdom with both these moves and that puts him in a position to look particularly bad if they fail.
 
DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The thing about Ainge and making bold, unconventional moves is that he is one of the few GMs in basketball who has Carte Blanche to take those sorts of risks.

Furthermore, he really seems to take his role as a disciple of Red very seriously. Red was anything but conventional - I defer to those older than me who may recall better but I believe he was perceived as a very shrewd trader who, on occasion, might get too cute.

Regardless, if other GMs enjoyed the latitude that Ainge has, we may see far more moves that defy conventional wisdom.
 
Jimbodandy

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
The thing about Ainge and making bold, unconventional moves is that he is one of the few GMs in basketball who has Carte Blanche to take those sorts of risks.

Furthermore, he really seems to take his role as a disciple of Red very seriously. Red was anything but conventional - I defer to those older than me who may recall better but I believe he was perceived as a very shrewd trader who, on occasion, might get too cute.

Regardless, if other GMs enjoyed the latitude that Ainge has, we may see far more moves that defy conventional wisdom.
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This is a really good point.

Red did shit like this a lot, because he could. Same could be said of a guy down US1, albeit in a different sport.
 
Saints Rest

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
The thing about Ainge and making bold, unconventional moves is that he is one of the few GMs in basketball who has Carte Blanche to take those sorts of risks.

Furthermore, he really seems to take his role as a disciple of Red very seriously. Red was anything but conventional - I defer to those older than me who may recall better but I believe he was perceived as a very shrewd trader who, on occasion, might get too cute.

Regardless, if other GMs enjoyed the latitude that Ainge has, we may see far more moves that defy conventional wisdom.
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I was thinking the same thing, catching up on this thread from the previous couple pages. We need to remember that Ainge played with two (future) Hall of Famers who were with the Celtics as the result of Red trading away the #1 overall pick for the #3 plus another asset.
 
kazuneko

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djbayko said:
He uses the stat that the Cavs went 4-23 when Lebron didn't play. But didn't someone earlier in this thread clarify that the Cavs also sat Kyrie in most of those games?
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I think that stat is for all games when LeBron didn't play, including an unknown amount of games when Irving was also out .
That said, there is this disappointing statistic:
The Cavs have been outscored by two points per 100 possessions when Irving is on the court and James is off it over their three seasons as teammates.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/kyrie-irving-trade-request-demand-cavaliers-rumors-news-dan-gilbert-ftw-explains
 
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mauf

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kazuneko said:
I think that stat is for all games when LeBron didn't play, including an unknown amount of games when Irving was also out .
That said, there is this disappointing statistic:
The Cavs have been outscored by two points per 100 possessions when Irving is on the court and James is off it over their three seasons as teammates.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/07/kyrie-irving-trade-request-demand-cavaliers-rumors-news-dan-gilbert-ftw-explains
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I'm not sure I should care that Kyrie couldn't coax league-average play out of a dogshit team (which is what Cleveland is ex-LeBron). What matters is whether he can excel on a team where he's probably the best player, but has a lot of other weapons. That's uncharted territory.
 
queenb

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DrewDawg said:
He has a bit of a goofy vibe too...
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Extremely goofy.


The whole interview, but especially his deadpan at the 5 min mark.

PH: Do you play this game to win the love and affection of your father, or is it for the cash and them hoes?
KI: I guess it's...I guess it's a combination of both.
 
The Mort Report

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Well, yes and no. One of the biggest reasons DA made the deal was to split the value of the #1 pick into two assets so that he would have more flexibility in making trades. If DA doesn't get the LAL pick, I'm not sure he makes the Irving trade even if he drafts Tatum at #1. And he sure doesn't make the Irving trade if he drafts Fultz at #1.

Very very smart.
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Fair point. I guess I was getting after the people that were all fired up about why not just draft Fultz if we were going to trade all that for Irving. I don't think I worded it exactly the way I wanted to. Post bartending beverages were involved so I blame the jerk bartender that was showing Jameson down my throat
 
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