2017 Patriots FA & Trades Thread

DJnVa

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For Kraft to find a way to say something I basically agree with, but to do it in a way that comes off smarmy and paternalistic and obnoxious on about three different levels, is some Andrew Cuomo level grossness for sure.
What's obnoxious? Is there more to the quote?
 

nothumb

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What's obnoxious? Is there more to the quote?
Eh. I find it really tiresome when owners act as if they are doing players a favor by letting them play in the league. If anything, owning a team (a.k.a. having a license to print money) is the privilege; for most players it's a hazardous, risky career with a high chance of permanent bodily harm.

That, and the hypocrisy of the Trump connection as someone pointed out. There is kind of a racial overtone to the whole thing too, but I won't even bother trying to get into that here.
 

RG33

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Eh. I find it really tiresome when owners act as if they are doing players a favor by letting them play in the league. If anything, owning a team (a.k.a. having a license to print money) is the privilege; for most players it's a hazardous, risky career with a high chance of permanent bodily harm.

That, and the hypocrisy of the Trump connection as someone pointed out. There is kind of a racial overtone to the whole thing too, but I won't even bother trying to get into that here.
Aside from this being a thread on Trades & Moves, this is just a ridiculous post in general. Please stop on behalf of everyone.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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In case anyone missed it, the Patriots quietly lost $4.5 million in cap space a couple of days ago. Apparently, after the 2011 CBA, teams were allowed to borrow against the cap up to $4.5 million. They had to pay it back by this league year. Miguel was always curious whether the Patriots had borrowed but could never get a straight answer. Apparently, they did, and have now "paid" it back in the form of a negative adjustment to their adjusted cap for this year, dropping their current cap space to about $21 million.

https://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/2017/03/28/explaining-why-the-new-england-patriots-lost-4-5m-in-cap-space-on-march-28-2017/
 

RedOctober3829

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In case anyone missed it, the Patriots quietly lost $4.5 million in cap space a couple of days ago. Apparently, after the 2011 CBA, teams were allowed to borrow against the cap up to $4.5 million. They had to pay it back by this league year. Miguel was always curious whether the Patriots had borrowed but could never get a straight answer. Apparently, they did, and have now "paid" it back in the form of a negative adjustment to their adjusted cap for this year, dropping their current cap space to about $21 million.

https://www.patsfans.com/salary-cap/2017/03/28/explaining-why-the-new-england-patriots-lost-4-5m-in-cap-space-on-march-28-2017/
Denver had to do the same thing.
 

nothumb

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Aside from this being a thread on Trades & Moves, this is just a ridiculous post in general. Please stop on behalf of everyone.
There have been lots of posts in this thread and elsewhere about the politics / optics of potential FA signings, and I was responding to a specific question from another poster. So if you don't like the observation, you can ignore it or argue it, but it's certainly relevant to whether some players want to come here or how ownership is perceived.
 

EddieYost

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So no news again eh?

Can we just stop talking about it so when this thread gets bumped there is a reasonable chance that some "news" has happened?
 

SeoulSoxFan

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There have been lots of posts in this thread and elsewhere about the politics / optics of potential FA signings, and I was responding to a specific question from another poster. So if you don't like the observation, you can ignore it or argue it, but it's certainly relevant to whether some players want to come here or how ownership is perceived.
I agree that an argument can be made about players/politics and how that may impact the team's makeup and performance.

However, it can (and should) happen on a new thread that's appropriately titled.
 

tims4wins

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Rapsheet tweeted yesterday of mutual interest between the Pats and LGBT for a return. Last year he signed with the team late in free agency, April 12 to be exact.
 

mwonow

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Gillislee and Damien Williams in for a look/see, according to Reiss (sorry, it's a tweet not an article, so I'm not sure how to link):

"With the running back position one of the Patriots' top needs, the club continues to explore all options. The club hosted both Mike Gillislee and Damien Williams Wednesday, per ESPN NFL Insider Field Yates. Each player is a restricted free agent, Gillislee of the Bills, Williams of the Dolphins. If the Patriots signed Gillislee to an offer sheet and the Bills didn't match, New England would surrender a fifth-round pick to Buffalo. If the Patriots signed Williams to an offer sheet and the Dolphins didn't match, there would be no draft-pick compensation from New England to Miami."
 

MillarTime

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Very interesting...like both players, though Gillislee more. Signing one of them would certainly seal Blount's fate, no?
 

tims4wins

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Gillislee makes so much sense it hurts. 5'11 219 so he has some size, although not as big a Blount. Classic Pats move to weaken a division rival. 5.7 YPC last year. Turns 27 in November.
 

DJnVa

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I like Gillislee as well, but I liked him more before signing Burkhead. That's 4 quality backs that need to be on the field (plus a guy like Bolden). Playing time will be fun.
 

Mooch

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Gillislee makes so much sense it hurts. 5'11 219 so he has some size, although not as big a Blount. Classic Pats move to weaken a division rival. 5.7 YPC last year. Turns 27 in November.
As I posted a while ago in this thread, Gillislee was at the top of my offseason wishlist since he represents such a perfect fit for the Patriots style of running attack. Decisive, one-cut into the hole kind of back who follows lead-blocking fullbacks well. Would love to see the Pats go with the two-RB attack where they mix and match guys both in the running and passing game. Gillislee is also a good pass blocker when called upon so he could play any down.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Gillislee is also quite proficient as a pass catcher out of the backfield.

As much as I love the Burkhead signing, it is only a one year deal. Having Gillislee in the fold means this may not only be the most versatile backfield BB ever had, it may be the most versatile in the RB group in the whole league.
 

tims4wins

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Gillislee is also quite proficient as a pass catcher out of the backfield.

As much as I love the Burkhead signing, it is only a one year deal. Having Gillislee in the fold means this may not only be the most versatile backfield BB ever had, it may be the most versatile in the RB group in the whole league.
Unsure about the pass catching thing. He only has 15 career catches. May be a matter of opportunity (and QB quality).
 

tims4wins

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As per the general transactions thread, Jason McCourty was cut. Sign him, trade Butler to NO for #32, and move on.
 

dcmissle

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Any insight on why he was cut? Performance, cap management/resource allocation, a combination?
 

tims4wins

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Any insight on why he was cut? Performance, cap management/resource allocation, a combination?
Per PFT:

He missed the final two games of the year with a shoulder injury and missed 12 games in 2015 due to a groin injury that required a pair of surgeries. His departure opens up $7 million in cap room for Tennessee.
 

pappymojo

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A post was made in the draft contest thread about undrafted free agents. The article below seems timely, but I wanted to shift the discussion to a different thread. This seemed like an appropriate spot.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2017/4/21/15339680/a-positional-comparison-of-the-current-and-2016-pre-draft-patriots-rosters

In 2016 the team went into the draft with 70 rostered players. When the dust settled, they had selected nine players. Of the 89 players they would eventually bring to training camp, 17 were either drafted or undrafted rookies.

Including the potential signing of Mike Gillislee, who technically counts against the Patriots’ salary cap as we await Buffalo’s decision, the 2017 Patriots roster stands at 65 players, 39 of whom remain from last April’s roster. They currently hold seven picks in this year’s draft, which would be reduced to six should Buffalo opt to let Gillislee walk.
 

dcmissle

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Anyone know when Buffalo's fuse on Gillisleee runs out, one way or another?
 

dbn

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A post was made in the draft contest thread about undrafted free agents. The article below seems timely, but I wanted to shift the discussion to a different thread. This seemed like an appropriate spot.

http://www.patspulpit.com/2017/4/21/15339680/a-positional-comparison-of-the-current-and-2016-pre-draft-patriots-rosters
Interesting. The effect of the paucity of draft picks is offset by the stacked-ness of the current roster, but from what you posted it seems there will be a lot of room for camp bodies, undrafted rookie, FAs, etc. They might wind up with the most talented practice squad ever.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Anyone know when Buffalo's fuse on Gillisleee runs out, one way or another?
Monday, I believe.
They have enough cap space at the moment to match and to draft, but they would need to make a move or two before signing their draft picks. So, I would think if they don't have a move already in the works it will be very difficult for them to feel confident enough to match.

I guess it's possible that they have hidden money in their cap like the Patriots did with Amendola. But if not, at this point it seems likely he'll be a Patriot.

Edit: Miguel has some tweets on this. Apparently, the Bills will save about $4 million on June 1 for the cut of Aaron Williams -- assuming this elevates a $510k player to the top 51, that should be plenty of savings to sign draft picks. So, I guess ignore what I've said. They can match if they want to, though it will leave them with very little cap space without making another move. Another interesting tidbit from Miguel's twitter wall is that the Bills filed their non-match on Hogan last year on the same day as the Patriots signed him to an offer sheet, so that's at least some indication they are taking their time with Gillislee because they are considering matching.
 
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PayrodsFirstClutchHit

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Interesting. The effect of the paucity of draft picks is offset by the stacked-ness of the current roster, but from what you posted it seems there will be a lot of room for camp bodies, undrafted rookie, FAs, etc. They might wind up with the most talented practice squad ever.
The challenge for the Pats might be getting these players to the practice squad without other teams poaching them. Given the lack of room on the roster, there will likely be some quality players available after the final cut-down.
 

pappymojo

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The challenge for the Pats might be getting these players to the practice squad without other teams poaching them. Given the lack of room on the roster, there will likely be some quality players available after the final cut-down.
I could see a scenario where the Patriots use their current salary cap space to be very aggressive in regards to undrafted free agents (or at least as aggressive as you can be with UFAs) with the intention of bringing in as many, potentially really cheap, bodies into camp as possible. If they end up trying to get an undrafted free agent onto the practice squad but find he is claimed by another team, they are not really out any significant money, but if they hit on player or two they buy themselves a couple of years of cheap service which, in turn, extends their available salary cap space into future years. If I can recall correctly, I think they were fairly aggressive with UFAs last year too. Perhaps they hit on a process that they want to exploit further.

Edit: to expand on the thought... it's not that attempting to sign UFAs is some new concept. Rather, it seems to me that the Patriots in this offseason have shied away from the pattern of signing veteran free agents to compete for roster spots. Last year they signed Pot Roast, Donald Brown, Nate Washington, & Markus Kuhn but none of them made the final roster.
 
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Harry Hooper

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Jeff Howe compares this offseason to 2007's:

The present-day Patriots are currently stocked with six picks this weekend, unless of course they trade cornerback Malcolm Butler or quarterback Jimmy Garoppolo. That’s because they traded a first- and third-rounder for Saints speed receiver Brandin Cooks (and a fourth-rounder), a second-rounder for Panthers defensive end Kony Ealy and a fourth-rounder for Colts tight end Dwayne Allen (and a sixth-rounder). They surrendered a fifth-rounder to the Bills when Buffalo declined to match the offer sheet on running back Mike Gillislee yesterday. The Pats also wheeled three of their 2017 picks in prior seasons for tight end Michael Williams, defensive end Barkevious Mingo and linebacker Kyle Van Noy.
Oddly he ignores the Pats got a third-rounder back from Carolina in the Ealy deal.
 

Saints Rest

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I could see a scenario where the Patriots use their current salary cap space to be very aggressive in regards to undrafted free agents (or at least as aggressive as you can be with UFAs) with the intention of bringing in as many, potentially really cheap, bodies into camp as possible. If they end up trying to get an undrafted free agent onto the practice squad but find he is claimed by another team, they are not really out any significant money, but if they hit on player or two they buy themselves a couple of years of cheap service which, in turn, extends their available salary cap space into future years. If I can recall correctly, I think they were fairly aggressive with UFAs last year too. Perhaps they hit on a process that they want to exploit further.

Edit: to expand on the thought... it's not that attempting to sign UFAs is some new concept. Rather, it seems to me that the Patriots in this offseason have shied away from the pattern of signing veteran free agents to compete for roster spots. Last year they signed Pot Roast, Donald Brown, Nate Washington, & Markus Kuhn but none of them made the final roster.
And haven't the Pats made offers to guys before to stay on their practice squad with extra financial incentives? As long as the money is on the books and counting toward the cap, is there anything against the rules with that? It is up to the player whether to accept the offer when another team tries to make a claim on the PS, right? (I know that the claimed player must be signed directly to the 53-man roster for something like 3 weeks)
 

ZMart100

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And haven't the Pats made offers to guys before to stay on their practice squad with extra financial incentives? As long as the money is on the books and counting toward the cap, is there anything against the rules with that? It is up to the player whether to accept the offer when another team tries to make a claim on the PS, right? (I know that the claimed player must be signed directly to the 53-man roster for something like 3 weeks)
I think they have paid the 53 man roster minimum to PS players before when the PS minimum is 50k or something.
 

edmunddantes

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I think they have paid the 53 man roster minimum to PS players before when the PS minimum is 50k or something.
Here's a decent primer on the practice squad from 2016

Practice squad basics


  • Each NFL team can have up to 10 players on its practice squad.
  • Practice squad players ... practice with the team. They do not play in games.
  • Not all players are eligible to be signed to NFL practice squads (see new rules on eligibility above).
  • Practice squad players are paid per week and can be released at any point during the season.
  • Practice squad players are free to sign with other NFL teams, but they have to be signed to the 53-man active roster of the acquiring team. A practice squad player cannot be signed to another practice squad unless he is first released.
  • A practice squad player can not sign with his team's upcoming opponent, unless he does so six days before the upcoming game or 10 days if his team is currently on a bye week.
  • If a practice squad player is signed to the active roster, he will receive a minimum of three weekly paychecks, even if he is released before spending three weeks with the new team.
  • In order to be signed to a practice squad after being released, a player must first clear waivers, and is subject to waiver claims by other teams


Salary
Practice squad players earn significantly less than players on the active roster, but they still take home a solid weekly paycheck. NFL practice squad players make a minimum of $6,900 per week that they are on the practice squad.


If a player remains on the practice squad for an entire regular season (at a minimum salary of $6,900 per week), he would earn a minimum of $117,300 over the full regular season if he keeps his spot on the practice squad. If a team makes the playoffs, these payments continue for as long as the team is in the playoffs.

To protect their players from other teams, or because they really like the potential of a given player, some teams pay their roster squad players significantly more. There is no limit to how much a team can pay a player on the practice squad, although the practice squad contracts do count against the salary cap.

The Patriots for example are one NFL team that consistently goes above and beyond the minimum practice squad rate. At certain points, the Pats have paid their entire practice squad weekly rates above the minimum salary. In 2015, the Rams paid supplemental draft pick OT Isaiah Battle $25,588 per week, which adds up to last year's $435,000 rookie minimum over 17 weeks, the highest amount ever paid to a practice squad player.
More at the link
 

Saints Rest

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So it remains hard to get someone thru to the PS after camp, but once he's there, you can use financial incentives to keep him from signing elsewhere.

I really like the suggestion offered upthread about looking to draft (and sign UDFAs) players who have potential but will be unable to play at all this year due to injury. Sign/draft and put them on IR as soon as possible.
 

Stitch01

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The guys on the IR come with a modest salary cap hit, you have to pay them for the season rather than cutting them like other scrubs that don't work out.

Niners tried this strategy and it didn't really pan out. That said if they do it with some low round picks, whatever.

Im not sure there's that much more roster space for UDFA types than in a typical year.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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And haven't the Pats made offers to guys before to stay on their practice squad with extra financial incentives? As long as the money is on the books and counting toward the cap, is there anything against the rules with that? It is up to the player whether to accept the offer when another team tries to make a claim on the PS, right? (I know that the claimed player must be signed directly to the 53-man roster for something like 3 weeks)
Though in theory a practice squad player counts against the cap, in practice it doesn't happen. Only your top 51 count toward the cap, which means the Patriots would need to pay a PS player more than $615,000 for there to be any cap implications.
 

Stitch01

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Rule of 51 isnt in effect during the season, all players count against the cap. Not sure exactly how practice squads work, but seems like theyd have to count otherwise there would be a loophole
 

Pxer

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Rule of 51 isnt in effect during the season, all players count against the cap. Not sure exactly how practice squads work, but seems like theyd have to count otherwise there would be a loophole
That's correct. PS salaries count against the cap as they are paid out.
 

pappymojo

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bigq

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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/05/10/patriots-made-may-9-tender-offer-to-legarrette-blount/

Patriots made tender offer to Blount. May still get comp pick if he signs with another team.
Wonder why more teams don't use the May tender. Seems like there is little downside for the Pats since they are on the hook for only 110% of last year's salary if no one else signs him before July 22 and if another team does pick him up it goes into the 2018 compensatory draft pick formula.